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Old July 4 2010, 12:56 PM   #61
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Gaith wrote: View Post
Calling out an injurious argument isn't "despising the fanbase".
Yes but despising the fanbase is, and I don't see you disputing the charge or distinguishing it from criticism of the series.
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Old July 4 2010, 01:40 PM   #62
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

For above posts about Meyer's LDS status vs. Twilight Saga:

The point is, Meyer preaches abstinence in her Saga. The Cullen family abstain from human blood. Edward won't have sex with Bella (even though she wants too) until they are married.

Re: Meyer's influence on teen's self-esteem:

Teen girls are, for the most part, smarter than this. The young ones (pre-teens) get caught up in the romance of it all, much like a rom-coms affect on older women. A pre-teen hardly uses Meyer's books as a bible though.

I really enjoyed Eclipse; got a giggle when I should have (Edward to Jacob: Don't you OWN a shirt? ) and enjoyed the fight scenes (though the glass breaking sound effect is new; I don't recall hearing that sound when they tore James apart in Twilight).

Of the three leads, I still contend that Patts is the best actor of them (especially in other movies he's been in), though Stewart didn't annoy me as much as before (she seems to have controlled her "I must take great gulps of air before each line" tactic). Lautner just needs more experience.

So a B+ from me. The next movies-well I hope they do revise some of it, because there is some bad crap a comin'
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Old July 4 2010, 10:25 PM   #63
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Trippy wrote: View Post
So a B+ from me. The next movies-well I hope they do revise some of it, because there is some bad crap a comin'
I'm sure they'll have to gimp some of the stuff I presume will happen in the next movie. As I've said I'll be very interested in seeing how they handle it.

As for the abstinence thing, that's probably the "one" thing I can get-behind when it comes to this movie/book series and that's hardly a Mormon/LDS thing that's just a good life-practice thing. Nothing against people who choose to have sex before marriage, I did it, but still abstinenece before marriage is hardly a "bad thing" to teach coming from someone who is LDS or not.

The movie series does have some very strong anti-female messages. Number one being that Bella cannot "completely be with" Edward unless she gives up everything that she is. She has to give up her family, her friends and her very life. Infact, in the movies so far it seems like she's building her entire personality around not having any future of her own and rather a future with a boy she fell in love with.

In High School.

Let's take a look at some of the stuff that happens in this movie and interpret what it might be telling the target audience, teenage girls.

Bella consults with her friends both directly and indirectly what she should do with her life post High School/with Jacob.

The blonde vampire girl tells a story about how she was raped by her fiancee and his friends, turned into a vampire (through a means I wasn't clear on) while laying in agony in the alley and then she went on a killing-spree against the beau and buds. As Cracked put it, Kill-Bill with vampires! (Tell me that wouldn't have been an awesomely better movie!) But she laments on how much she regrets killing, how it solved nothing, and she doesn't much care for her "life" as a vampire. She pretty much tells Bella: don't do it.

Jasper tells a story of how he was made into a vampire to try and help the Confederates win the Civil War but also has his regrets about what he's done and the loss of his humanity and mortality.

Jacob, one of Bella's oldest friends, tells her at every turn not to do it, granted he's dong this partly for selfish reasons because he wants Bella for himself but at the same time he doesn't want her to die and become a monster.

Edward at every opportunity has told Bella he doesn't want to change her and that she's much better off remaining human. (The Venturi Fey Coven of Gothicistic Vampires not withstanding.) So pretty much everyone she knows has been telling her she's making the wrong choice. That she's eighteen damn years old and that she's making a bad decision and she shouldn't do it.

The we get to Hottie McCutie's valedictorian speech where she pretty much says, "Graduate high-school, do whatever you want, fuck-up your life and figure it all out later."

So, go ahead, Bella get yourself killed and give up everything your life could be and stands for because you want to feel a sparkly, cold, penis inside you. Becuase, hey, this part of your life is about making mistakes that you can just fix or work out later.

Except for the being undead part, the craving blood part, the never seeing your family again part and all of the other hurdles that come with being a vampire in this universe. (And yes, I'm aware of what "really" happens when Bella is changed but from her POV she, nor Edward, knows this will be the case.)

I just don't get it! Why is this supposed to be romantinc? Why is this girl giving up everything that she is for high-school boyfriend supposed to be romantic? Why am I supposed to want this relationship to occur? What reason is there to be on "Team Edward"? And, yes, I'm a 31-year-old man without children so I'm likely not in a position to "get it" but many adult mothers have wrapped themseleves up into this "romance" and many parents seem to encourage girls being all swoony over Edward and thinking he's a great guy for Bella.

Why is he such a great guy? Because he won't killl her?! WTF?! If that's all it takes to impress women these days I've got it made. "Hey baby, I promise to love your forever, and do anything for you you want, but I won't kill you."

Jesus, it's like a fucked-up version of a Meat Loaf song.

So after saying all of this it could be infered that I'm on "Team Jacob." But I'm not. Forced to pick a side I'm on Team Edward.



But Trekker, you say, how can that be?! You just posted all this stuff about how fucked-up Bella's and Edward's relationship is! Well, true. At the same time Bella's such a daft idiot after being told by everyone not to do this, she doesn't share "all of the facts" with her parents, she knows what risks come with being changed and yet she wants to do it anyway because her crotch itches for Edward. She like a battered woman who keeps going back to an abusive husband despite being given countless opportunity to get out of the relationship. "I can't leave him, he won't do it to me again! He promised, really promised this time!" I can't feel sorry for her after all of this. Jacob is too good for her. He's a far better looking guy (I'm man enough to admit it), he's actualy alive, he seems to really care about her and, oh, he can have sex with her without possibly killing her and their child being a chest-burster alien demon. Jacob deserves better than Bella who is so awesome and perfect that after her first day at a new school she's the most popular girl ever! But yet she's got all of the personality of the damp towel laying on the floor of my bathroom.

Jacob, buddy, go after Hottie McValedictorian. Oh, and buy a goddamn shirt!
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Old July 4 2010, 11:05 PM   #64
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
The blonde vampire girl tells a story about how she was raped by her fiancee and his friends, turned into a vampire (through a means I wasn't clear on) while laying in agony in the alley and then she went on a killing-spree against the beau and buds.
Edward's dad found her dying on the street, so he changed her to save her life.

Jasper tells a story of how he was made into a vampire to try and help the Confederates win the Civil War but also has his regrets about what he's done and the loss of his humanity and mortality.
No. No. It wasn't about winning the Civil War. The book goes into some more detail. The vampire armies were being created in the south because of vamps that want territory. The more land they controlled, the more humans they could use as sheep. There was a huge epic war between vampire clans. It turned into a bloodbath with thousands of humans getting killed in the conflict.

The Volturi got pissed since no one was trying to hide anymore. They came to America and slaughtered all the vampires that were causing all the trouble. Creating vampire armies is very illegal to this day.
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Old July 4 2010, 11:08 PM   #65
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Dream wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
The blonde vampire girl tells a story about how she was raped by her fiancee and his friends, turned into a vampire (through a means I wasn't clear on) while laying in agony in the alley and then she went on a killing-spree against the beau and buds.
Edward's dad found her dying on the street, so he changed her to save her life.

Jasper tells a story of how he was made into a vampire to try and help the Confederates win the Civil War but also has his regrets about what he's done and the loss of his humanity and mortality.
No. No. It wasn't about winning the Civil War. The book goes into some more detail. The vampire armies were being created in the south because of vamps want territory. The more land they controlled, the more humans they could use as sheep. There was a huge epic war between vampire clans. It was turning into a bloodbath with thousands of humans getting killed in the conflict.

The Volturi got pissed since no one was trying to hide anymore. They came to America and slaughtered all the vampires that were causing all the trouble. Creating vampire armies is very illegal to this day.
Okay, okay, I muddied the details. Regardless they both pretty much say, "Being a vampire sucks, don't become one of us."
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Old July 4 2010, 11:14 PM   #66
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Okay, okay, I muddied the details. Regardless they both pretty much say, "Being a vampire sucks, don't become one of us."
I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with you. You seemed to confused about a few things, so I wanted to explain so you can understand the movie a little better.
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Old July 4 2010, 11:17 PM   #67
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Was it Edward's "real" (birth) Dad who "saved" Vampire Bride or was it pensive, vastly more interesting than Bella or Edward or Jacob, Cullen Doctor Dad?
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Old July 4 2010, 11:20 PM   #68
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Was it Edward's "real" (birth) Dad who "saved" Vampire Bride or was it pensive, vastly more interesting than Bella or Edward or Jacob, Cullen Doctor Dad?
Cullen doctor dad.
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Old July 5 2010, 12:17 AM   #69
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Okay so this series as far as a cinematic experience has gotten better each time out.

Twilight was a C-
New Moon a B-
Eclipse a B+

I've yet to actually pay for one of these movies out of my own pocket. I'm asked to go and treated so my lady friends will not have to be alone. I need to start seeing if I can pull this stunt with action and sci-movies? But I digress.

There are still to many flowery speeches about romance and true love that ring hollow. They come off as spoken by people who haven't really known love or heartache to be able to appreciate love.

I'm going to miss making fun of Jasper. The first two films he looked constipated the whole time and said maybe 3min of dialoge. This film revealed him as one true badass. Where are the TEAM JASPER shirts? He's now my second favorite male Cullen after Carlysle(sp?).

There were a few good one liners but the best had to be the "I am hotter than you line" by Jacob.

I've found another thing to dislike as well. What is with them suddenly(?) being broken apart like marble statues? I don't recall James from the first movie breaking apart like that. With the sparkling, daylight and marble like quality I just don't like much of Meyer's version of vamps.

The Volturi seem like a good heavy if they were really cut loose. I'd love to hear more about Carlysle's life with them, before and after. Jasper and Marie's story could play like an Angelus/Darla affair. Now what about Emmet and Alice? I really need more on Alice.
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Old July 5 2010, 01:02 AM   #70
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

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I've found another thing to dislike as well. What is with them suddenly(?) being broken apart like marble statues? I don't recall James from the first movie breaking apart like that. With the sparkling, daylight and marble like quality I just don't like much of Meyer's version of vamps.
In the books, Bella describes the vampires as having skin like marble. I think they made the vampires so marble like in Eclipse because they were ripping off heads and arms in the final battle. They probably didn't want it to be too bloody. I was pleasantly surprised at how violent it was, with limbs flying off like that.

The Volturi seem like a good heavy if they were really cut loose. I'd love to hear more about Carlysle's life with them, before and after. Jasper and Marie's story could play like an Angelus/Darla affair. Now what about Emmet and Alice? I really need more on Alice.
We never really learn much about Emmett in the books. He is the big strong guy with a sense of humor. We find out about Alice's history in the first book. They never showed her flashback in the first movie for some stupid reason. Hopefully, they will add in an Alice flashback in the next movie since they are doing it in two parts.
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Old July 5 2010, 02:09 AM   #71
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Kegg wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
Calling out an injurious argument isn't "despising the fanbase".
Yes but despising the fanbase is, and I don't see you disputing the charge or distinguishing it from criticism of the series.
You mean I should prefix every criticism of a fiction series with a "I don't despise this thing's fans, but..."?
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Old July 5 2010, 06:12 AM   #72
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Trippy wrote: View Post
The point is, Meyer preaches abstinence in her Saga. The Cullen family abstain from human blood. Edward won't have sex with Bella (even though she wants too) until they are married.
One of the things I find interesting is we don't know if Bella or Edward are virgins. It's just seem to be assumed. Secondly people who get engaged or married in Twilight seem to come to really bad ends. Bella's parents are divorced. Esme's first husband abuses her (and she never divorced him). Rosalie gets raped by her fiance. As for Bella, I can't believe Stephanie Meyer could treat a character so horribly.


Teen girls are, for the most part, smarter than this.
I wish that was true, but the epidemic in physical and sexual abuse among young teenagers, teen pregnancies, cutting, anorexia, bulimia, binge drinking and suicides seems to argue against that claim.
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Old July 5 2010, 10:41 AM   #73
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Gaith wrote: View Post
You mean I should prefix every criticism of a fiction series with a "I don't despise this thing's fans, but..."?
If someone accuses you of despising the fanbase, don't agree with them.
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Old July 5 2010, 01:04 PM   #74
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

NuFan wrote: View Post
Since there were no redeeming qualities to the first one, I've passed on both sequels.
I liked the baseball scene in the first film and the rest of it was tolerable enough. Got bored of the second halfway through and switched off. No plans to see this one or, y'know, read the books; whatever interest I had in the franchise has been sated. The moral panic thing is fun to watch, though, particularly as it appears to be promulgated largely by romantically challenged males.
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Old July 5 2010, 02:54 PM   #75
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Kegg wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
You mean I should prefix every criticism of a fiction series with a "I don't despise this thing's fans, but..."?
If someone accuses you of despising the fanbase, don't agree with them.
What's wrong with despising tweens and emotionally troubled and/or relationship challenged women.

To be honest I pity them more than despise.
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