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Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

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Old July 1 2010, 11:42 PM   #16
Daneel
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Haven't seen it, have no interest in seeing it, but I did go to the cinema yesterday (to see Knight and Day), and sure enough, there were hordes of teenage girls throughout the place, waiting in line-ups, a few dressed up, and a number with words like "Team Edward" and "Team Jacob" scribbled on their faces. And this is still probably more socially acceptable than Trek fans dressing up in Starfleet uniforms.

Oh, and apparently, it's already made $68.5 million. That means it made its budget back in one day. One day! I guess those emo teenage girls are a force to be reckoned with.
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Old July 2 2010, 01:12 AM   #17
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Wont read them; wont watch them; they are wimp vampires.

Talk to Lestat, Khayman, Maharet, Gabrielle, Armand, and of course Marius.

Do your research , Kids.

Vlad Dracul, Le loup garou
(Silver has no effect on a were-wolf; as a cross as no effect on a vampire.)
silver cannot be used as a bullet-chemistry.
Why would a vampire be afraid of someone who gave His life for death? Jealousy?
We wont go into mirrors.

You kids are so caught up in the romance--nothing romantic about depriving others of life so YOU can live forever. Are the powers that be teaching you selfishness, at the expense of others?

That's what I got out of Business School.

Think about it
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Old July 2 2010, 01:33 AM   #18
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

At the risk of sounding like I'm defending the Twilight Saga (believe me, I'm not), there are different, legitimate interpretations of vampire and werewolf lore where the vulnerabilities you are discussing don't necessarily have to be present or not.

Example: On Buffy The Vampire Slayer (the television series), vampires turn to dust when beheaded, staked, or set on fire. Vampires though don't sleep in coffins ("It's a myth!" says Angel).

On True Blood however, some vampires do sleep in coffins, or under the floorboards, and they explode with bloody organs and entrails all over the place.

Seemingly in the Twilight films, they shatter as if made of ice or some other weakened stone.

I guess my point is simply that there's room for all kinds of interpretations about the mythology surrounding these types of characters, so hinging your whole reasoning for not liking the films or books on it seems ... well, uninformed.

Think about it.
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Old July 2 2010, 01:41 AM   #19
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

To me, the Twilight series took the whole thing to a bit of a... stupid level. Vampires get a random super power, they sparkle in sunlight (seriously, what the fuck is that?!) and they seem to be unkillable -even by sunlight- unless they're killed by one of the flamboyant illuminati vampires by getting their head ripped off... or whatever.

There's many interpetations of vampires, sure, but one wonders what made Meyer call these "vampires" rather than just come up with something else or just treat them as the more traditional vampire. (They sparkle in sunlight, seriously... What... The... Fuck?!) Don't get me started on the whole "is Jacob a werewolf or isn't he" thing. (He's not.)

Then there's the whole thing where this book/movie series is sold and presented as some great teenage love story when a deep interpretation of it shows that it has pretty misogynistic attitudes and bad messages for teenage girls.

(Remember girls, if a guy you really like breaks-up with you he doesn't really mean it. So mope around for several months, cry out at night like a crazy person and if you threaten to kill yourself it'll make him come running back to you! Oh, and doing dangerous things will give you that same "rush" you feel when you're with him. And you should manipulate other men to get what you want.... and C-Sections really suck.)

And, honestly, as much as I've seen this movies and heard about the stories I'm not sure where any Mormon/LDS symbolism comes into play. My best friend who is LDS doesn't see any symbolism in it either. Whatever, Meyer. Oh, and Bella has such a terrible character flaw in that she's so perfect... except she's not because she's clumbsy.

God these movies suck.
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Old July 2 2010, 01:56 AM   #20
doubleohfive
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
To me, the Twilight series took the whole thing to a bit of a... stupid level. Vampires get a random super power, they sparkle in sunlight (seriously, what the fuck is that?!) and they seem to be unkillable -even by sunlight- unless they're killed by one of the flamboyant illuminati vampires by getting their head ripped off... or whatever.

There's many interpetations of vampires, sure, but one wonders what made Meyer call these "vampires" rather than just come up with something else or just treat them as the more traditional vampire. (They sparkle in sunlight, seriously... What... The... Fuck?!) Don't get me started on the whole "is Jacob a werewolf or isn't he" thing. (He's not.)

Then there's the whole thing where this book/movie series is sold and presented as some great teenage love story when a deep interpretation of it shows that it has pretty misogynistic attitudes and bad messages for teenage girls.

(Remember girls, if a guy you really like breaks-up with you he doesn't really mean it. So mope around for several months, cry out at night like a crazy person and if you threaten to kill yourself it'll make him come running back to you! Oh, and doing dangerous things will give you that same "rush" you feel when you're with him. And you should manipulate other men to get what you want.... and C-Sections really suck.)

And, honestly, as much as I've seen this movies and heard about the stories I'm not sure where any Mormon/LDS symbolism comes into play. My best friend who is LDS doesn't see any symbolism in it either. Whatever, Meyer. Oh, and Bella has such a terrible character flaw in that she's so perfect... except she's not because she's clumbsy.

God these movies suck.
Putting aside the qualitative (and elegantly stated!) assessment of the books and films, I do wonder about the effect these stories will have on young women in the coming years and the message it sends about manipulating young men.

Honestly, beyond the moping Bella does for Edward, the middle-school emo elements of their relationship, and then Jacob's so-called love for Bella, the real message that gives me serious pause is simply the complete and totally unabashed way Bella clearly uses Jacob. Granted, it's nothing new, we've seen this kind of love triangle before in vampire fiction, but it's not been quite so overt or unapologetic before.

There are teenage girls out there who will see these movies and read these books and decide that this is how they should treat men. I'm not saying all will, I'm just saying that I don't agree with the message either series is sending to young, impressionable girls.

Then again, it's really no different than the sometimes misogynistic behavior displayed in the James Bond novels and films. Or, the way any of the sexually frustrated nerds on this very BBS turn their heads (and their staunch opinions ) the minute a pretty face appears and barely acknowledges their existence. Myself, I don't particularly care for either behavior. But people have been conditioned to expect certain treatment as a result of certain behavior.

Example: Troi's Fabulous Wigs posts a picture of herself in a bikini, and suddenly dozens of guys who disagreed with her stance on equal marriage are agreeing with her. Likewise, if your boyfriend breaks up with you, as long as you communicate to the rest of the world how much it sucks, how sad you are, and your life (literally!) screeches to a standstill, he will come back to you and make it all better.

For this alone, Bella is probably one of the worst female protagonists in the history of literature; she isn't proactive, she's just plain reactive. And, as I'm sure many of the male membership here can attest, the guy who is actually the better choice of the two, the one who has more to offer and to give, and the one who probably is closest to actually loving her, is just the crutch she uses till Edward the Stalker returns. Beyond the faux-tragic trappings for Romeo & Juliet and even the insipid Star Wars Episode II vibe I got while watching the last scene of the film (it happened in New Moon as well), it's just wholly ridiculous.

I get that people can't control who they love (wouldn't it be nice if we could though?) and that it is certainly possible to be in love with two people at once (been there, got the T-shirt), and, believe it or not, I get loving someone you can't be with so much that it hurts like hell..... but the melodrama is so poured on that it taints any of the other positive or interesting elements to the story.

I'm not so hung up on the particulars of the vampire fiction in this iteration -- if Stephanie Meyer wants to make her vampires be sparkly and pretty, let her make them thusly. It's her baby, her world to build. I don't know that I'd make my vampires sparkly in my (hypothetical) vampire novel, but that's me, not her. Translation: this is a superficial element to a piece of literature and cinema with larger, far-reaching implications in our modern culture.

As someone with a younger 20-something kid sister and who also has younger 20-something female friends and as someone who has seen first-hand the geek-squee-ing and tacit approval given to Edward's stalking and Jacob's constant spurning, it just bothers me that these are the role models in fiction that kids today can look to.

Say what you want about the Harry Potter books and novels, they were at least smart kids and (mostly) wholesome role models.


As for the Mormon/Latter Day Saint influence/content, well, I don't know enough about the tenets of either to speak to this part of the discussion, but again -- it's Stephanie Meyer's universe, so of course she's going to be informed by her faith while writing. Just because I don't agree with said tenets or religion, doesn't automatically make their inclusion wrong or bad.
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Last edited by doubleohfive; July 2 2010 at 02:19 AM.
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Old July 2 2010, 02:04 AM   #21
Trekker4747
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
Say what you want about the Harry Potter books and novels, they were at least smart kids and (mostly) wholesome role models.
Agreed. Same cannot be said about this Meyer drivel.
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Old July 2 2010, 02:23 AM   #22
doubleohfive
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

"Discussing the finer points of Twilight on our modern culture and discourse with Treker4747"

Well, I guess I can scratch that one off the ol' "Things I Never Thought I'd Be Doing" list...

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Old July 2 2010, 03:52 AM   #23
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading



I've not much to say about this movie right now, I'll likely go see it out of curiosity tomorrow night, but the franchise as a whole has yet to impress me. Granted, though, it's hardly being geared to impress a 30-year-old man.
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Old July 2 2010, 03:53 AM   #24
Anwar
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Well, about Vampires walking in daylight: Dracula could do this too. He just didn't sparkle.
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Old July 2 2010, 03:59 AM   #25
Trekker4747
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Anwar wrote: View Post
Well, about Vampires walking in daylight: Dracula could do this too. He just didn't sparkle.
It's often been my interpetation that vampires could walk around in daylight they just couldn't be in direct sunlight. In "Twilight" they live in Washington which, it seems, is in perpetual overcast.

But "classic" vampires to me, it seems, that they can be up in the daytime but direct sunlight kills them. I guess, um, the clouds scatter the sunbeams enough to not effect the vampires.
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Old July 2 2010, 05:38 AM   #26
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Three things:
1)
As a fan of the series, I have to say that I'm really looking forward to seeing Eclipse, particularly because I'm interested in seeing how David Slade - who did an amazing job with 30 Days of Night - applied his sensibilities to Meyer's melodramatic material and Melissa Rosenberg's adaptation of said material.

2) The Twilight Saga is one of the only book/movie franchises that I can think of that is 100% 'niche', but has nevertheless become overwhelmingly successful. The books are not for everyone, and while Meyer might not be the most gifted of writers, she has nonetheless managed to create a story that is captivating and interesting to many.

3) Regarding what 'social' or 'moral' impact the novels might or might not have on future generations of young women, I personally think that such concerns are extremely misguided and, ultimately, baseless and unfounded. Yes, there are certain negative conotations that one could derive from the behavior of the characters - male and female alike - throughout the series, but practically anything can be skewed to be negative if one is so inclined.
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Old July 2 2010, 06:04 AM   #27
indranee
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

I just have to say this: as a long time Trekkie, I do not expect my fellow Trekkies on a Trek board to have such condescending attitudes toward the fans and the mytharc of Twilight. Have we forgotten how WE are treated by society on the whole?

I know I haven't forgotten.

I'll say this though: two fellow Trekkies on this very board (Dennis and Trekker) got me to watching the first movie early this year by recommending it as a pretty good popcorn -- yes, popcorn -- flick and I'm grateful for that. I had avoided it before that as a teen flick. I watched it and loved it -- flaws and all. I treat Twilight as entertainment. Nothing more, nothing less. And it entertains me greatly.

As for vampires. Please. I grew up in India, and the vampiric lores there are just as varied and as "preposterous" as anything you can find in Stephenie Meyer's badly written tomes. Point: it's all FICTION. Sure, these dudes sparkle. Why not? What's wrong with it? Who's gonna prove it wrong? You? Me? Who? It's not like any of us have actually met one

Finally, as a woman, I'm just way happy that a "girlie" franchise is finally making so much g-d money. Seriously, guys, can't you just be happy for us? 'Cos, ya know, if we're happy, you're happy... right?
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Old July 2 2010, 09:57 AM   #28
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
Say what you want about the Harry Potter books and novels, they were at least smart kids and (mostly) wholesome role models.
Hermione, sure. Ron, maybe. But Harry? Can barely be arsed to read a book to save his life. He's noble, yes, in that he fights evil and all, but is hardly a role model.
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Old July 2 2010, 04:20 PM   #29
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
As a fan of the series, I have to say that I'm really looking forward to seeing Eclipse, particularly because I'm interested in seeing how David Slade - who did an amazing job with 30 Days of Night - applied his sensibilities to Meyer's melodramatic material and Melissa Rosenberg's adaptation of said material.
I thought David Slade did a wonderful job. Eclipse flowed better and the action was much better shot than the first two movies. Catherine Hardwicke and Chris Weitz did okay with the first two movies, but it's obvious that they weren't that experienced making the fights exciting. It almost made me wish Slade was directing the entire series.
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Old July 2 2010, 04:43 PM   #30
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Re: The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

Yeah, it'd have been interesting to see his take on all of them. Though, I can't deny that Catherine Hardwicke's take on the first film is a guilty pleasure of mine. I've re-watched it many times, flaws and all. She did a great job with what little money she had. And she imbued the movie with something "non-real" and beautifully juxtaposed the real/mundane world of the high school with the sinister/magical world of the vampires. None of that was the case with New Moon.

Anyway, I'm at a loss about M. Night though. WTF is he doing? I really thought he'd give Airbender an honest try.... but the reviews are horrific. 9% on the RT meter? What gives? We were supposed to go see it tonight but we're re-thinking the plan.

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