Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?

[Wynterhawk]

JarodRussell wrote:

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Kirk would have actually needed a natural "talent" of charisma. Something in his personality that makes people want to follow his decisions. That's one important aspect about born leaders.

Pine Kirk didn't have that, in my opinion. He was an arrogant ass that nobody liked.

I agree with this. While the writers were compelled to show him as a bad-boy rule flaunter, there was nothing else in the character arc that made him likeable. Which brings me to the notion that I do not believe, considering Spock's attitude toward him, that Spock would have voluntarily come back at the last minute offering his services to the captain. Methinks there was some mighty Vulcan arm twisting going on.

[Cadet49]

KingDaniel wrote:

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Kirk was "one of the guys" in STXI, on equal footing with Sulu, Uhura, McCoy and the rest. As a stowaway cadet, he didn't command anyone.

As much as I enjoyed the film, and Chris Pine's performance as Kirk, I'm not sure he'll be a convincing authority figure in Star Trek XII.

I completely agree with you. To me, Pine just doesn't have the presence that Shatner did, and something has been lost in the character. Can you picture Pine's Kirk giving a dramatic speech about the nature of freedom and self-determination (as in "The Apple" or "Mirror, Mirror" or "Where No Man Has Gone Before"), strategizing over chess with Mr. Spock, or quoting famous poets (as in "How Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth"). In TOS, Kirk seemed like an intelligent, well-read, deep-thinking leader, a portrayal helped by Shatner's Shakespearean training. Pine just doesn't have that presence for me - I can see glimpses of it, but if that sense of command isn't evidence strongly in the next movie, I think the audience that were fans of the original series and films will disengage, which would be really unfortunate!

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I don't have a problem seeing him in charge of this group. None at all.

[kkozoriz1]

Let NuKirk be NuKirk and let Spock run things. The First Officer usually runs most of it anyway. The Captain makes the decision, the Exec makes sure it's done. Gives Kirk more time for hooking up with the ladies.

[EnsignRicky]

Yeah, Sports Authority.

Nah, I kid. He's good.

[Captrek]

JarodRussell wrote:

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Kirk in a briefing of the cadets. And he gives Saavik yet another scenario to think about. She's on a sinking boat with another person, the water is full of sharks, what does she do? When she answers she would sacrifice herself, he provokes her by saying that the other person isn't worth the money Starfleet invested into her training or something like that.

Wait a second, which one of these two is supposed to be the Vulcan and which is supposed to be the human?

[scnj]

Why are people obsessing over the fact that he doesn't have the same qualities as Shatner's Kirk? It's not the same character. The death of his father altered the timeline, and new Kirk grew up to be a different person. Ultimately, he ended up in the same position of authority, but that does not make him the same person.

And yes, I do think he'll make a good leader. I saw him in a small film called Carriers that was released shortly after Star Trek, and he had to make several very difficult decisions along the way, and his acting sold me on it every single time.

[Captrek]

This could be a good theme for the sequel. NuSpock sees himself as an expert on command. He has command experience and is the creator of one of the Academy’s key tests of command ability. NuKirk is inexperienced and has little regard for what the Academy teaches about it.

NuSpock could see NuKirk as an on-the-job-trainee and himself as the trainer (which would address Wynterhawk’s question of why NuSpock volunteered to be NuKirk’s first officer). NuKirk has his own ideas and is not receptive to what NuSpock is trying to teach.

[kkozoriz1]

NuSpock wouldn't see himself as being in a position to teach NuKirk. Kirk broke all the rules, disobeyed orders and saved Earth (but failed to save Vulcan). For that he was promoted past Spock and given command of the newest ship in the fleet. Spock, if anything, put himself up as First Officer so he could serve under Kirk, perhaps to learn from him.

[Captrek]

kkozoriz1 wrote:

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NuSpock wouldn't see himself as being in a position to teach NuKirk.

Yes he would. NuKirk wouldn’t see NuSpock as being in a position to teach him anything, but NuSpock wouldn’t see things the same way. Just because NuKirk pulled a rabbit or two out of his hat while breaking all the rules doesn’t mean that everything that NuSpock knows about command is worthless. At least, that’s how I think NuSpock would see it.

[kkozoriz1]

Spock saw that it was useless to argue with Kirk since kirk would simply do what he wanted to do anyway. Once he offered to be his first office he was showing that he was willing to follow Kirks orders. Everything Spock did turned out badly. Everything Kirk did worked. Spock was just acknowledging that he has more to learn from Kirk than vice versa

[Temis the Vorta]

Kirk would have actually needed a natural "talent" of charisma. Something in his personality that makes people want to follow his decisions. That's one important aspect about born leaders.

Pine Kirk didn't have that, in my opinion. He was an arrogant ass that nobody liked.

Then they have their work cut out for them, kicking Kirk's arc into high gear so that he does become the leader that people will follow. I outlined the most important points to cover in my previous post.

Pine is a charismatic actor, so that's not the problem. The problem is the same as for any leaders: his people must believe he cares about them; that he believes in the same things they do; and that he has the courage and audacity to make tough decisions when the need arises (ie, they feel they can trust him not to fold under pressure or make stupid decisions).

Leadership isn't a talent so much as a collection of skills that anyone can learn. The things that can't be faked are things like: are you the sort of person who actually is capable of caring about the good of the group over your own self? And do you honestly believe in whatever it is that defines the group you are leading (because if you don't, you definitely shouldn't try to fake it).

This, plus Spock's arc (most likely him going into an emotional tailspin as he increasingly fails to cope with the events of Trek XI), could take two more movies to fully play out, especially since there also has to an action-based plotline (external threat) and some time needs to be devoted to the other five characters. Maybe they need three more movies.

That's because being an iconoclast (One who shoos off rules and regulations) and a bada** (doing things your own way and trying to look awesome while doing it) are selfish aspects to a character.

If Kirk is an iconoclast/badass in the service of the things that make him a good leader, then those aren't incompatible. For example:

-Starfleet gives him a stupid order that he knows will needlessly put his crew in harm's way, and he defies it at the risk of his career.

-An Admiral gives him an order that he knows is a breach of Federation ethics and therefore threatens the cohesion of not just the group under his command, but Starfleet in general. He defies this order.

-He is forced to roll the hard six. Being a badass like Bill Adama was a badass is a good thing in a leader, and an essential thing in a military leader.

To me, Pine just doesn't have the presence that Shatner did, and something has been lost in the character. Can you picture Pine's Kirk giving a dramatic speech about the nature of freedom and self-determination (as in "The Apple" or "Mirror, Mirror" or "Where No Man Has Gone Before"), strategizing over chess with Mr. Spock, or quoting famous poets (as in "How Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth"). In TOS, Kirk seemed like an intelligent, well-read, deep-thinking leader, a portrayal helped by Shatner's Shakespearean training.

All those elements need to be put into a script before Pine can act them on screen. It will take two or three movies before they can shoehorn even the minimum in, inbetween action scenes. Shatner had the luxury of developing the character in 50 minute chunks every week. Pine has a measly two hours every two years. Of course the poor guy seems more shallow!

[Captrek]

Temis the Vorta wrote:

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An Admiral gives him an order that he knows is a breach of Federation ethics and therefore threatens the cohesion of not just the group under his command, but Starfleet in general. He defies this order.

Oh yippee, just what we need. NuInsurrection.

[Temis the Vorta]

captrek wrote:

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Oh yippee, just what we need. NuInsurrection.

That story can be done well, in addition to being frakked up.

Everything that I've said about Kirk presupposes that the writers know how to craft a good story. But "Kirk stands on principle," is a scene or storyline we do need to see, because it's an essential part of getting Kirk from point A to point B and beyond.

You can't grouse that he's not a leader and then grouse about the things the writers need to do, to get him to become a leader. There are some standard tropes I fully expect them to use, because they're a good shorthand way of crafting the character arc they need, and they don't have the luxury of hours and hours of screen time.

[kkozoriz1]

Temis the Vorta wrote:

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Everything that I've said about Kirk presupposes that the writers know how to craft a good story. But "Kirk stands on principle," is a scene or storyline we do need to see, because it's an essential part of getting Kirk from point A to point B and beyond.

Are you saying that the next movie will have different writers?