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Old June 24 2010, 10:49 AM   #16
Pauln6
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
There is nothing wrong with hybrid aliens and I think it's great that Trek has shown that kind of diversity among its non-Human characters. The overwhelming majority of races in the Star Trek Universe are humanoid--and that includes Vulcans, Klingons, Andorians, etc.,--so compatibility issues should be few and far between, with most probably overcome through science, IMO.
Apes are humanoid, iron-blooded, and evolved on the same planet as us with a common genetic ancestor and yet (thankfully) we can't 'interbreed' without some major genetic engineering. I don't have a major issue with hybrids, I have an issue with 'accidental' hybrids i.e. the notion that there is ANY possibility than alien species would automatically be compatible and the 'prissy' way Trek approaches genetic engineering, which would be a fact of life by the 23rd century. I also have an issue with the frequency with which hybrids are used in Trek. B5 dealt with hybrids in a much more sensible way.

I think many evolved species would need genetic engineering to weed out bad genes that would traditionally have been eradicated by natural selection otherwise your species would gradually devolve over time to the point where everyone needs medical treatment just to stay alive (such as the increase in allergies we see today). From that perspective a Vulcan/Andorian hybrid could look like anything you want because you'd have to design it in a lab!
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Old June 24 2010, 11:26 AM   #17
C.E. Evans
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
There is nothing wrong with hybrid aliens and I think it's great that Trek has shown that kind of diversity among its non-Human characters. The overwhelming majority of races in the Star Trek Universe are humanoid--and that includes Vulcans, Klingons, Andorians, etc.,--so compatibility issues should be few and far between, with most probably overcome through science, IMO.
Apes are humanoid, iron-blooded, and evolved on the same planet as us with a common genetic ancestor and yet (thankfully) we can't 'interbreed' without some major genetic engineering.
I think in the Star Trek Universe, most humanoid species are compatible. Some more than others, some less. I think real difficulties occur between humanoid and non-humanoid species (like the Horta, Species 8472, and other life-forms that aren't even remotely humanoid in shape or genetic structure (say, non carbon-based)).
I don't have a major issue with hybrids, I have an issue with 'accidental' hybrids i.e. the notion that there is ANY possibility than alien species would automatically be compatible and the 'prissy' way Trek approaches genetic engineering, which would be a fact of life by the 23rd century. I also have an issue with the frequency with which hybrids are used in Trek.
I don't have any issues with the way hybrids come about or their frequency in Trek.
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Old June 24 2010, 11:34 AM   #18
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

Looking back at the comment I made earlier I realised that it sounds like I don't like hybrids. That isn't true. I was simply trying to think of ways to explain them in Trek. As for the die hard science lovers out there who say its impossible, this in in a universe where we can travel faster than light and where a device can disassemble a person send them through a stream of energy and reassemble them in less than 10 seconds.

The "fi" part of sci-fi is there for a reason

-Bry
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Old June 24 2010, 11:45 AM   #19
Pauln6
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
As for the die hard science lovers out there who say its impossible, this in in a universe where we can travel faster than light and where a device can disassemble a person send them through a stream of energy and reassemble them in less than 10 seconds.

The "fi" part of sci-fi is there for a reason

-Bry
Heh - but I like my Fi to have some internal logic. They worked quite hard to give warp drive and transporters a great deal of in-universe science to explain them (even if they keep accidentally contradicting themselves on the fine print). Inter-species breeding is very poorly thought out compared to that.

The fact that humanoid life forms are a massive genetic experiment by Trek's own 'First Ones' was a nice step in the right direction but it just doesn't go far enough to explain how beings with vastly differing genes and wholly different blood chemistry can interbreed naturally.
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Old June 24 2010, 01:57 PM   #20
StarryEyed
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think in the Star Trek Universe, most humanoid species are compatible. Some more than others, some less. I think real difficulties occur between humanoid and non-humanoid species (like the Horta, Species 8472, and other life-forms that aren't even remotely humanoid in shape or genetic structure (say, non carbon-based).
Dude, you're speaking about a subject you obviously know absolutely nothing about. That is never a good idea. If you have no problem with impossible creatures on Star Trek, that's fine but don't try to argue that they are actually believable. Hybrids are flat-out impossible outside of being genetically engineered and grown in a lab. That is not an opinion.
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Old June 24 2010, 02:41 PM   #21
C.E. Evans
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

StarryEyed wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think in the Star Trek Universe, most humanoid species are compatible. Some more than others, some less. I think real difficulties occur between humanoid and non-humanoid species (like the Horta, Species 8472, and other life-forms that aren't even remotely humanoid in shape or genetic structure (say, non carbon-based).
Dude, you're speaking about a subject you obviously know absolutely nothing about.
"Dude," don't talk to me like you're some kind of authority on the subject because you ain't. In fact, it shows how you missed a very simple concept: This. Is. Star Trek. To break that down for you, that does not mean the real world, but it does mean the world as according to Star Trek, where many incredible things are possible.
If you have no problem with impossible creatures on Star Trek, that's fine but don't try to argue that they are actually believable.
If you had actually read my post instead of just locking on something to argue about, you would have realized that I specifically said, "In The Star Trek Universe..." Nothing I said implied I was talking about anything other than the purely fictional beings such as Vulcans, Andorians, etc. (do you know where there are real aliens? Do you know their biology and compatibility level with Humans?) I really thought that was kind of obvious and didn't need to be explained.

Hybrids are flat-out impossible outside of being genetically engineered and grown in a lab. That is not an opinion.
Of course it is an opinion. It's nothing but an opinion, because all the aliens in Star Trek are make believe. There's no way of knowing what is and isn't possible unless it's actually said so onscreen. Otherwise, don't confuse the real world with Star Trek.
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Old June 24 2010, 03:22 PM   #22
Pauln6
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

But even using the lax biological rules of Star Trek, I can see no way that two beings with differing blood chemistry could breed without help. The mother provides nutrients for the Foetus - it's her blood and her oxygen that keeps the little fella going. I don't see how a human can keep a Vulcan foetus alive even assuming Vulcan sperm could be genetically engineered to penetrate the wall and fertilise a human ovum if they have completely different blood.

Maybe that's not how Vulcan women keep their foetuses alive of course. In nature, hybrids can vary based on whether you have, for example, a tiger father and lion mother or a lion father and tiger mother. Even so, I would have thought that Spock could not have grown in amanda's womb, in spite of the scene from NuTrek (cut I believe) showing his natural birth.
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Old June 24 2010, 04:31 PM   #23
C.E. Evans
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
But even using the lax biological rules of Star Trek, I can see no way that two beings with differing blood chemistry could breed without help.
I said in my very first post that most compatibility issues probably were resolved with the use of science. But I also think it depends on the compatibility level between members of two different humanoid species. Depending on the pairing, it could vary anywhere from easy, to difficult, to "forgetaboutit."
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Old June 24 2010, 04:40 PM   #24
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

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. . . Fan fiction also has andorians requiring 4 genders to procreate . . .
Andorian porn must be VERY interesting.
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Old June 24 2010, 05:42 PM   #25
TiberiusMaximus
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
But even using the lax biological rules of Star Trek, I can see no way that two beings with differing blood chemistry could breed without help.
I can see no way to produce enough energy to warp space-time around a vessel to move through space at effectively faster than light speeds, no way to break a person or object into a billion tiny pieces and assemble it remotely, no way to create a stable wormhole, no way for non-linear energy beings to exist, no way flying around a sun would cause time travel, no way the Vorta could be immune to most poisons you can think of....

Hmm, now that you mention it, Star Trek is impossible. Thanks for enlightening me - I mean, ruining everything!

Okay, ignore my sarcasm and don't get offended. My only point is that it's ridiculous to choose one part of Star Trek to not believe. Personally, I think you are correct - in reality, two lifeforms that are 'alien' to one another could breed. But in Star Trek, they can. In Star Trek, slingshot-ing yourself around the sun sends you back in time. This point has been made before, but I had to say it. If you are willing to suspend your disbelief to the point that warp travel is possible (and easy), hybrids are no less believable, in my humble opinion.
We know all humanoids (well, most) in Trek came from the ancient humanoids, which is why they can interbreed. The same genetic engineering that made them walk upright, have opposable thumbs, two eyes, etc., could also have given the DNA 'instructions' as to how to create life with a different set of DNA, telling it what traits would exist, which would be dominant, whose blood type would flow in the child, what the skin color would be...just like two humans creating a child.

On the other hand, if you just want to imagine that every hybrid had assistance, go ahead...K'Ehleyr said her parents needed 'help' so that is a valid opinion. I think it could happen sometimes without assistance, but that's just me.
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Old June 24 2010, 06:38 PM   #26
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

Sal'ira wrote: View Post
This question has been bothering me for quite some time. I want to know what the voices not in my head think of my question. An Andorian/Vulcan child? What do you think it would look like? Would it have antennae? Would its blood be blue or green? Blue or greenish skin? What species would have the dominant genes? What do you think?
A unicorn.

Bry_Sinclair wrote:
As for the point about interspecies breeding being absurd, I do agree that it is a little far-fetched that humans and species just happen to share enough genetic similarity to produce healthy children. This could go back to the fact that all humanoids came from a single species (a TNG episode whose name I can't remember either).
Yeah, a single prokaryote. "The Chase," while well-intentioned, purported to explain humanoids, but all it did was explain the universal use of DNA as a genetic coding language, which is impressive and would have been cool had they known what they were doing.

I don't think the writers actually knew how eukaryotes developed. Hint: DNA played a subsidiary role.

TiberiusMaximus wrote:
We know all humanoids (well, most) in Trek came from the ancient humanoids, which is why they can interbreed. The same genetic engineering that made them walk upright, have opposable thumbs, two eyes, etc., could also have given the DNA 'instructions' as to how to create life with a different set of DNA, telling it what traits would exist, which would be dominant, whose blood type would flow in the child, what the skin color would be...just like two humans creating a child.
Except bacteria don't have opposable thumbs. Or mitochondria or cholorplasts. Or nuclei. Strangely, life forms that haven't changed as much in the intervening four billion years ago aren't as complicated. I wonder where that complexity came from, because it didn't come from the Salome Jensians.

Also, I suspect the immune system would have something to say about alien cum.
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Old June 24 2010, 06:56 PM   #27
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

Under no known biology laws is the mating between two alien species possible. We humans can't even mate with gorillas, that are the closest thing to us. Even considering that, even with extraordinary technical and genetic abilities, like the ones the "First Ones" have, it would be extremely difficult to produce beings with so much resemblance to one another. There could be one with three eyes, another with their nose in the forehead, another with their mouth above their eyes, small ones the size of an apple, or tall ones the size of a building. Most of them would probably use very different mating methods than our two-gender tube-in-the-hole one. It would be impossible to even consume alien foods, for that matter.

For things like the above to be remotely possible in the real world, the "First Ones" would have to colonise the other planets with their own flora and fauna, and then program their evolution.

But we're talking Star Trek here. Where parallel worlds whose people speak English exists in our own Galaxy. So we should just consider it poetic licence.
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Old June 24 2010, 07:24 PM   #28
Nerys Myk
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

Indeed. There is more drama and conflict in exploring the role of a hybrid in society than that of a character of a single planetary origin. And Star Trek is a drama first and foremost.
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Old June 24 2010, 07:48 PM   #29
TiberiusMaximus
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

^Aye, you've got a point there.
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Old June 24 2010, 09:41 PM   #30
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Re: What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

A few thoughts:
I don't know if ENT weighed in on this, but I seem to recall when Data was doing one of his verbal data-dumps about comparative views on mating that he said Andorians married in groups of 4. Trek Lit seems to have taken that ball and run with it to the idea that Andorians have 4 genders. If that is the case, I doubt they could interbreed with any of the 2-gendered races.
If, however, you decide that Andorians are 2 gendered but have a social convention of polygamy (perhaps requiring 2 males and 2 females to make a "marriage" in their culture), then cross-breeding is more likely.

Trek has cross-breeding a lot more likely than reality, probably because it's cool. So let's roll with that.
I believe the only time we have had an on-screen mention of a crossbreed that wasn't "Human-something" it was Klingon-Trill. Trek seems to follow the convention of many Fantasy settings that humans can breed with almost anything. So, again, there is reason to doubt an Andorian-Vulcan is possible.

But you didn't ask if it was possible, you asked what it would look like.
From what we've seen (with the exception of Spock), half-breeds tend to be a blend of their parents' features. So:
Pointy ears, though not quite as pointy as a Vulcan's (see: Simon Tarses)
Antennae, though smaller than most.
Slightly paler blue, perhaps a bit aqua.
Hair white or black, or a mix (like salt-and-pepper: some strands white, others black)

IMO, YMMV.
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