Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?

[Sabataage]

KingDaniel wrote:

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^Some stubble might help: I thought Kirk looked younger than ever in the final scene.

I also didn't like the yellow shirt, but Trek often gives captains custom outfits. I think a Voyager-style inverted colours uniform for Kirk (i.e. black with yellow undershirt) would look cool.

When you said that I imagined a black shirt with yellow pants. Now that would've been memorable.

[Captrek]

Jeyl wrote:

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Why would you leave your crew in the dark about a potentially fatal scenario just to satisfy your own selfish ego? If he was trying to make a point, why did he keep it to himself until he was confronted with it?

First, it wasn’t a potentially fatal scenario. It was a simulation. Cadets were supposed to act in the simulation the way they would if it were real, and in that sense Kirk certainly violated the spirit of the test, but his position was that the test, as implemented by Spock, wasn’t realistic, so he didn’t.

As for keeping everybody else in the dark, he obviously enjoyed the flair of it, but it was also necessary. If Spock or the other test administrators had known what was going to happen, they would have reversed the tampering (or, if they couldn’t fix it in time, they would have aborted the simulation).

[Jeyl]

captrek wrote:

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First, it wasn’t a potentially fatal scenario. It was a simulation.

Ya, i's kind of hard to experience fear in the face of certain death when computerized klingon ships go 'boom!' and all you get is a red light that goes beep. Really effective. I could go into detail on how the writers missed the point on what the test was really all about, maybe some other time.

captrek wrote:

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As for keeping everybody else in the dark, he obviously enjoyed the flair of it, but it was also necessary. If Spock or the other test administrators had known what was going to happen, they would have reversed the tampering (or, if they couldn’t fix it in time, they would have aborted the simulation).

Keeping your own crew informed and keeping the administrators informed are two different things.

[JarodRussell]

They got the Kobayashi Maru scenario completely wrong in this movie. Even Kirk's attitude. The original Kirk wanted to WIN the unbeatable scenario. He wanted to find the solution to the problem. He didn't want to make fun of it.

[King Daniel]

JarodRussell wrote:

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They got the Kobayashi Maru scenario completely wrong in this movie. Even Kirk's attitude. The original Kirk wanted to WIN the unbeatable scenario. He wanted to find the solution to the problem. He didn't want to make fun of it.

But that doesn't make sense. There is no "solution". The test was designed not to be very, very hard, but impossible. Thus it's immediately obvious to everyone that he's cheating when he doesn't die or when anything not originally programmed in happens.

Making a statement and a mockery of the test is far more believable (and dignified) than "playing along" and pretending he "won" it. In the former, Kirk makes a point while in the latter he looks like a sore loser attempting (impossibly and stupidly) to lead everyone around him on.

[Captrek]

Jeyl wrote:

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Keeping your own crew informed and keeping the administrators informed are two different things.

No they aren’t, unless you’re absolutely certain that not a single person in your crew is going to squeal. What are the odds that Nyota would have kept the secret from Spock in order to protect Kirk? Somewhere between zero and none, if not less.

That’s the way the military works. When secrets have to be kept, they are shared only on a need-to-know basis, and sometimes not even then. Anyone who is in the military is going to have to learn to deal with the fact that their superiors don’t always tell them everything.

[Jeyl]

captrek wrote:

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No they aren’t, unless you’re absolutely certain that not a single person in your crew is going to squeal.

Guess that's one of the challenges of being a commanding officer. Trying to get your crew into doing things they believe is wrong even though it's the only solution to a problem everyone faces. Maybe if Kirk told his crew that he was planning on getting caught and that he would accept full responsibility for his actions, because in the end, that's what he wanted to do. Prove a point.

[Jeyl]

KingDaniel wrote:

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Thus it's immediately obvious to everyone that he's cheating when he doesn't die or when anything not originally programmed in happens.

Well, not THAT immediate.

Adviser: How did that guy beat your test?
Spock: I do not know.

Hmm. Kirk is seen doing nothing, the lights go off for some reason that no one really knows why, than all of a sudden the klingon ships are disabled and go down with one shot. Why would their first impression be that he legitimately beat the test? Did IQs decrease over the centuries where we can't fathom the possibility of a system error? Cause that's what it looked like to me.

[Devon]

JarodRussell wrote:

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They got the Kobayashi Maru scenario completely wrong in this movie. Even Kirk's attitude. The original Kirk wanted to WIN the unbeatable scenario. He wanted to find the solution to the problem. He didn't want to make fun of it.

There is nothing to make a comparison to, so how did they get it wrong?

This is all we know from "The Wrath of Khan":
1.) He cheated

The rest is just fanon or something derived from a book. Since what is on screen is official then we now know how alternate timeline Kirk beat the test.

Jeyl wrote:

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Well, not THAT immediate.

Adviser: How did that guy beat your test?
Spock: I do not know.

Hmm. Kirk is seen doing nothing, the lights go off for some reason that no one really knows why, than all of a sudden the klingon ships are disabled and go down with one shot. Why would their first impression be that he legitimately beat the test?

No one said that he "legitimately" did. But the test was beaten, and it threw the superiors completely off guard.

Did IQs decrease over the centuries where we can't fathom the possibility of a system error? Cause that's what it looked like to me.

Not when Kirk is gloating about it and it's obvious that he's making a mockery of the simulation. This was all in that scene.

[Devon]

Double post.

[King Daniel]

Jeyl:
The guy said "How did that kid beat your test?" sarcastically.

They were watching Kirk the whole time - there's no way they would have missed the way he (didn't) react to the "system error" - and they way he was acting prior should have clued everyone in.

Spock was pissed that someone messed with his program.

Once the exact how and when was figured out, Kirk was called out at the assembly by Komack and Spock.

[Rusty0918]

Well, the Kirk we saw in Trek XI worked for an introduction, but in a sequel, if he's still as cocky and devil-may-care as a captain, then we'll know the real truth. To me, the jury is still out on them. The sequel will REALLY prove how things will be.

[T'Girl]

KIRK: I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship. I changed the conditions of the test. I got a commendation for original thinking. ...I don't like to lose.

Jeyl wrote:

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Ya, i's kind of hard to experience fear in the face of certain death when computerized klingon ships go 'boom!' and all you get is a red light that goes beep. Really effective. I could go into detail on how the writers missed the point on what the test was really all about, maybe some other time.

I'm convinced that Saavik didn't know what scenario she was facing when she walked into the simulator. She had probably been in the same simulator dozens of times, often dealing with routine ship handling or scientific scenarios. The Kobayashi Maru was a surprise, Saavik seemed to figure it out only after hearing the words "in the neutral zone."

Kirk took the test three times, if the first time through it was a surprise, not there after. Even if the tester changed the scenario each time, Kirk knew what to expect.

captrek wrote:

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As for keeping everybody else in the dark, he obviously enjoyed the flair of it, but it was also necessary.

Kirk might have been thrown out of the academy or even faced time in a Starfleet detention facility. Most likely he wouldn't have wanted McCoy and the others to face a similar fate.

I don't think the prospect of expulsion would have bothered Pine Kirk very much, he was only at the academy as a lark anyway.

[Captrek]

Jeyl wrote:

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Ya, i's kind of hard to experience fear in the face of certain death when computerized klingon ships go 'boom!' and all you get is a red light that goes beep. Really effective.

As Jeyl points out, there is no “fear in the face of certain death” when the cadets know it’s a simulation. There isn’t even a fear of failing the mission when the cadets know that nothing they do can affect that outcome of the mission.

So how about this as another way the film might have handled it:

The instructors want to see how the cadets deal with failure, so they create this test for them to fail. They do not acknowledge that it is literally impossible to win. There are rumors that nobody has ever beaten the test. The administrators refuse to confirm or deny the rumors.

Cadets who take the test hope to be the first to beat it, and know that if they fail they have to handle the failure with composure.

Kirk, after trying and failing twice, discovers that the simulator is programmed to ensure the mission’s failure no matter what the cadets do. He concludes that “the test itself is a cheat,” so he decides to cheat and respond to the resulting accusations with a “You’re all a bunch of hypocrites” defense. In the process, he also exposes the true nature of the test, which had widely been suspected but never known for certain.

[JarodRussell]

T'Girl wrote:

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Kirk took the test three times, if the first time through it was a surprise, not there after. Even if the tester changed the scenario each time, Kirk knew what to expect.

That is the point! If it was a test to "experience fear in the face of certain death", you would not be able to take it three times. Ever played scary maze 3 times and still get surprised?

It was a test of CHARACTER. No matter what you do, you lose the simulation. You simply cannot win, because every time you might save the ship, they add another bunch of problems. Most cadets would simply live with this fact and move on. Kirk didn't. AND he found the solution to the no-win-scenario. Which is why he got the commendation for original thinking. He did not cheat. He probably did what Starfleet was always looking for.

His son, who wanted to kill him an hour before, sarcastically said "He cheated." But he didn't take the test and didn't know anything about it.

And then there is this little dialogue in TWOK:

KIRK: You're bothered by your performance on the Kobayashi Maru.
SAAVIK: I failed to resolve the situation.
KIRK: There is no correct resolution. It's a test of character.
SAAVIK: May I ask how you dealt with the test?
KIRK: You may ask.

In the TWOK novel there is a scene right after the simulation. Kirk in a briefing of the cadets. And he gives Saavik yet another scenario to think about. She's on a sinking boat with another person, the water is full of sharks, what does she do? When she answers she would sacrifice herself, he provokes her by saying that the other person isn't worth the money Starfleet invested into her training or something like that. Then Saavik gets angry, and he learns something about her.

That is the whole purpose of the test.

They got it right in TNG, too. When Wesley had this surprise test at the academy in which he had to quickly decide who to help. And when Troi took the command test and had to send someone to death to save the ship. Test of character. You can't save everyone and have to sacrifice skilled people and even friends, which is also a form of the no-win-scenario.



And in the new movie, the new purpose of "experience fear in face of certain death" doesn't even make sense. NOBODY in the simulator room was afraid of anything. Uhura and McCoy were both annoyed, but not afraid. The bridge set had a huge set of panorama windows with observers looking down on them, the effects and graphics were not convincing at all. That is totally not how you invoke fear.