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Old June 1 2010, 07:00 AM   #31
Hermiod
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Re: Apple – The New Comics Censors

Arrqh wrote: View Post
Flash (coming soon)?
Unfortunately, unlike Symbian which is designed for mobile devices, the iPhone OS isn't. Notorious battery killers like Flash aren't going to happen any time soon.

Installing apps from a source other then the official store?
This is a ticking time bomb for any OS that supports letting apps do whatever they like on a device that can make phone calls.

Being able to customize the OS and swap out built in apps?
It's a phone, not a PC.

Use it on another network from AT&T?
iPhones are available on at least four different networks here.

Be able to unlock your phone without being accused of breaking the law?
All Apple have said is that if you break it in the attempt, it's your fault. That's all.

Have a choice of multiple devices to better suit your specific needs and cost requirements?
You have that choice. Nokia will sell you a phone to suit any need, as will many other handset manufacturers.

Being able to buy apps that Apple hasn't rejected for arbitrary reasons?
Ultimately, it's their store, they are responsible for what is sold on it and they have to ensure that their device plays nice on other people's networks - they have to make sure that their phone doesn't drive down the street with its snow tyres on in the middle of July.
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Old June 1 2010, 07:25 AM   #32
Dusty Ayres
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Re: Apple – The New Comics Censors

Small White Car wrote: View Post
Why let the government arbitrarily pick one company to win out over the other? Who gets to make that choice?
We, the people, do. When said company is engaging in monopolistic business practices, said company has to be brought to heel and made to behave. This was the same situation as Standard Oil, Paramount Pictures and all of the other Hollywood movie studios, and Microsoft. And as I said before, there needs to be a big, nasty new set of antitrust proceedings/laws, with razor sharp teeth, to make the current media behemoths behave and stop the bullshit they're all on, because it's fucking up movies, music, television, radio & publishing, and making everything crap in the process (in case you haven't noticed, people aren't pleased with movies & TV these days.) That's all there is to it, and that's about the size of it.
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Old June 1 2010, 07:27 AM   #33
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Re: Apple – The New Comics Censors

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You seem very sure of that. The idea here is that the Adobe programs would be IN the app-store, remember. Since they're cross-platform, what do you want to bet that many developers will use them?

I'm betting that most of the app store would BE Flash-made apps.
And considering there's already +200k apps on the App Store that aren't made using Adobe's tools, you'd lose that bet. Developers aren't going to drop their existing pipeline and codebase to switch over to Adobe... that would be pointless and expensive. Additionally, if Apple wants to ensure that there are apps that use whatever features they want to promote, they can either make those apps themselves or hire a developer to do it for them. This is, by the way, how Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft operate on their game platforms and why comparing game platforms to Apple is incorrect. Cross platform games are common; no platform owner tries to discourage this, instead they each make sure that they have games that are exclusive to promote both their libraries and their technical abilities.

Like I said, I don't think that'll happen. I think the 'free market' will never get a chance to choose. Right now I can choose between a phone without Flash (iPhone) or a phone with (eventual) Flash (Android.) I consider THAT to be the free market deciding. I have a choice of which kind of phone to buy. Forcing Flash onto the iPhone means that I then must buy a phone with Flash. If I want one without it, I would no longer have that choice.

Basically, we're arguing about 2 different kinds of choice:

1) I think giving consumers the choice over what kind of platform to buy is paramount.

2) You think that giving developers the choice over what kind of software to design with is paramount.


Those are contradictory goals in this case. Are you a software writer? Then it would make sense why you'd pick #2 over #1. Me? I'd rather give the freedom to the public than the software writers. Sorry, but I think the people spending the money have the greater rights. That sucks for the developers, I know, but SOMEONE has to win there. I choose consumers.
The solution to your first point here is fairly obvious: have an option to disable Flash. This is what Android will have: the current preview release of 2.2 with Flash 10.1 beta has an in-browser option to disable Flash. If you don't want it, you turn it off, done. This is similar to the requirements put on Microsoft in the EU but in reverse: give consumers all the available options (in Microsoft's case, browsers) and let them choose. No need to force anything on anyone.

As to consumers vs. developers... well that's all well and good, but it ignores one of the fundamental driving forces of any platform ever made, which is developers. Without developers a platform is nothing (see: WebOS). The success of the iPhone hinges on the App Store, which is only a draw because of the developers that develop for it. Without them, there are no apps and one of the big reasons to chose the iPhone over any of its competitors is gone. And if Apple can keep some developers from making cross platform apps, then it means their competitors will have a smaller number of apps in their app stores, thus making Apple's platform more insisting to consumers. And that's the linchpin of the whole affair: by controlling the developers, they're robbing the free market the choice between platforms.

Basically it goes like this: lets say I start a small business to develop mobile apps. I don't have a lot of starting capital, certainly not enough to write and maintain multiple copies of my app. So I look at the market and see that I have two choices. I can either write a cross platform application using some 3rd party development platform (and there are many others besides Adobe here... Monotouch, Unity3D, etc) which can be easily ported to Android/WebOS/Maemo/etc but NOT the iPhone... or I can just code an iPhone version and skip all the others. In the consumer app store space, there are way more sales in the Apple store so my best choice to make a profit as soon as possible is to create just the iPhone version and ignore the rest. If my app sells well then great, in 6 months or a year I can now code a second version which can then be ported to whatever other platforms I want to deploy on.

The net effect? Small developers will target the iPhone first. There will be more new apps on the iPhone then on other platforms and the growth of other platforms will be hampered. Because of this, consumers looking to purchase a phone will see that there are more apps available for the iPhone and based on that make the best choice for them... go with the iPhone. By unfairly restricting developers, consumers are intrinsically hurt. And by hampering the growth of their competitors, Apple has less incentive to innovate... which results in things like multitasking being a big deal now instead of two years ago.

So casting this as consumer freedom vs. developer freedom is wrong. Developer freedom is consumer freedom.

And as it turns out... if you look at just the phone platform app sales (so, sales directly from developers to consumers), in 2009 99% of app sales were through Apple. If that doesn't demonstrate control over both the direct to consumer app market and over developers, I don't know what does!

And in the end, all Apple has to do is revert their developer license to what it was a few months ago, before the offending restrictions were added. It worked out great for nearly two years and resulted in plenty of quality apps developed with 3rd party libraries. If it ain't broke...
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Old June 1 2010, 07:46 AM   #34
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Re: Apple – The New Comics Censors

Hermiod wrote: View Post
Arrqh wrote: View Post
Flash (coming soon)?
Unfortunately, unlike Symbian which is designed for mobile devices, the iPhone OS isn't. Notorious battery killers like Flash aren't going to happen any time soon.
So give people an option to turn Flash off; that's what Android does. It's certainly what I'm planning to do when 2.2 finally gets pushed out.

Installing apps from a source other then the official store?
This is a ticking time bomb for any OS that supports letting apps do whatever they like on a device that can make phone calls.
Hasn't been a problem for Android. To install apps not from the market, you need to go through the menu and turn the option on. A warning pops up telling you the potential hazards and you hit okay. Done.


Being able to customize the OS and swap out built in apps?
It's a phone, not a PC.
On my Android phone, I'm currently using a Home app replacement (LauncherPro) which handles the home screens instead of the build in app. There are several choices available. I'm currently using a keyboard replacement (Swype), though I've also used Smart Keyboard in the past. There are a few others available. There are even 3rd party dialers to choose from, though all the ones I've seen so far are pretty ugly. There are also a myriad of choices for music players available (which is good, because the stock Android player is pretty naff). All on my phone, which isn't a PC.

iPhones are available on at least four different networks here.
That's great; it doesn't help US users. At the moment, the only major US carrier that's lagging behind in Android devices is AT&T... three guesses as to why.


Be able to unlock your phone without being accused of breaking the law?.
All Apple have said is that if you break it in the attempt, it's your fault. That's all.
Actually, no. To unlock an iPhone, you have to jailbreak it. Apple has stated that they believe that jailbreaking an iPhone is a violation of the DMCA and have issued takedown notices to sites that have instructions on how to jailbreak. They have not yet tried to go after individual users. They probably won't, because it isn't worth their time... but this is certainly more then just dropping support. See here.

Have a choice of multiple devices to better suit your specific needs and cost requirements?
You have that choice. Nokia will sell you a phone to suit any need, as will many other handset manufacturers.
Yes, you have that choice if you don't go with the iPhone. That was my point.

Being able to buy apps that Apple hasn't rejected for arbitrary reasons?
Ultimately, it's their store, they are responsible for what is sold on it and they have to ensure that their device plays nice on other people's networks - they have to make sure that their phone doesn't drive down the street with its snow tyres on in the middle of July.
Again, that was my point. The original question I was responding to was "why would you want an Android phone instead of an iPhone." Everything I said in response where things that you can do with an Android device that you cannot with an iPhone. Certainly not everyone will care about these things and I don't expect them too; I do and that's why I went with a Nexus One. If someone prefers the experience and walled garden of the iPhone, then they can go for it. My fundamental point here is that for some people, Android phones represent a better choice for their needs then the iPhone. That's all.
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Old June 1 2010, 08:09 AM   #35
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Re: Apple – The New Comics Censors

Arrqh wrote: View Post
So give people an option to turn Flash off; that's what Android does. It's certainly what I'm planning to do when 2.2 finally gets pushed out.
Let me get this straight, you want Apple to add Flash to the iPhone just so you can turn it off as soon as you get it out of the box ?

The Internet is supposed to be about open standards. There's nothing open about Flash. One company has made the Internet all about them and it's not Apple.

Hasn't been a problem for Android. To install apps not from the market, you need to go through the menu and turn the option on. A warning pops up telling you the potential hazards and you hit okay. Done.
As I said, that's a ticking time bomb. I can't wait for the pained expressions on the faces of people in the tabloid newspapers whose phones dialled premium rate numbers in the middle of the night.

On my Android phone, I'm currently using a Home app replacement (LauncherPro) which handles the home screens instead of the build in app. There are several choices available. I'm currently using a keyboard replacement (Swype), though I've also used Smart Keyboard in the past. There are a few others available. There are even 3rd party dialers to choose from, though all the ones I've seen so far are pretty ugly. There are also a myriad of choices for music players available (which is good, because the stock Android player is pretty naff). All on my phone, which isn't a PC.
You are an edge case. Apple make a phone with a specific user interface and a specific user experience. Your choice is to buy that phone or not.

That's great; it doesn't help US users. At the moment, the only major US carrier that's lagging behind in Android devices is AT&T... three guesses as to why.
Because AT&T's network sucks and they don't want any more data heavy devices on their network than they already have ?

Actually, no. To unlock an iPhone, you have to jailbreak it. Apple has stated that they believe that jailbreaking an iPhone is a violation of the DMCA and have issued takedown notices to sites that have instructions on how to jailbreak. They have not yet tried to go after individual users. They probably won't, because it isn't worth their time... but this is certainly more then just dropping support. See here.
I have not seen an actual instance of Apple pressing any kind of charges or taking any kind of legal action against a user for jailbreaking an iPhone.

Yes, you have that choice if you don't go with the iPhone. That was my point.
I don't see how it's that much of a criticism against Apple. As I said, they have created a specific device with a specific user experience. It is up to you to buy that device or not.

Again, that was my point. The original question I was responding to was "why would you want an Android phone instead of an iPhone." Everything I said in response where things that you can do with an Android device that you cannot with an iPhone. Certainly not everyone will care about these things and I don't expect them too; I do and that's why I went with a Nexus One. If someone prefers the experience and walled garden of the iPhone, then they can go for it. My fundamental point here is that for some people, Android phones represent a better choice for their needs then the iPhone. That's all.
In general the main arguments against the iPhone seem to be from people who see some feature, often one that's an edge case that only they are interested in, that is missing and turn it in to a moral crusade.

If people want a moral crusade, how about going after the proprietary plug-in that has cornered off a huge chunk of the Internet for itself ?

Who here actually likes Flash ? Wouldn't it be better if your browser supported the things Flash does without having to install a buggy, battery draining plug-in that isn't responsible for a significant portion of all browser crashes ?
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Old June 1 2010, 08:31 AM   #36
Neeka Keet
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Re: Apple – The New Comics Censors

Flash is the devil, 9 times out of 10 the things that have made my browser crash are flash related. 100% of the time intrusive flash ads annoy me and take up my time by making my browser lag. To be perfectly honest I could live in a world without flash and I do whenever I use Safari on my iPod touch.
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Old June 1 2010, 11:08 AM   #37
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Re: Apple – The New Comics Censors

But I though having a big company deciding what you see and how you use their product was one of Apples selling points?
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Old June 1 2010, 01:19 PM   #38
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Re: Apple – The New Comics Censors

Arrqh wrote: View Post
The net effect? Small developers will target the iPhone first. There will be more new apps on the iPhone then on other platforms and the growth of other platforms will be hampered. Because of this, consumers looking to purchase a phone will see that there are more apps available for the iPhone and based on that make the best choice for them... go with the iPhone.
Why will they do that?

Android is growing and will be out-selling the iPhone and that's not going to reverse. RIM is doing very well for themselves, too.

I totally believe your story, but if there are more Android+BB+Palm phones than iPhones (and more app sales for them then for iPhones) then why wouldn't it be backwards from what you described? Developers will write the cross-platform version first since that will see the most sales there and THEN write the iPhone version.

Right? Why do you think they'll go after the smaller number of sales first? Because that was how it worked in the past? It won't be that way in the future. The iPhone will never be a majority-product. It had a head-start in all this, but it won't last.

So the question becomes, if developers are writing-once-and-running-everywhere BUT the iPhone and then getting to the iPhone second...how is Apple harming anyone with that?
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Old June 1 2010, 01:45 PM   #39
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Re: Apple – The New Comics Censors

RAWR!!! APPLE!!! RAWR!!!
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Old June 1 2010, 05:52 PM   #40
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Re: Apple – The New Comics Censors

Hermiod wrote:
Let me get this straight, you want Apple to add Flash to the iPhone just so you can turn it off as soon as you get it out of the box ?

The Internet is supposed to be about open standards. There's nothing open about Flash. One company has made the Internet all about them and it's not Apple.
No, what I want is for no one company to be able to dictate what direction the web evolves in... especially one that has the potential of making financial gain if they can force something else out of the market. Apple's crusade against Flash has absolutely nothing to do with open standards; is has to do with Apple's stake in the H.264 patent fiasco and the threat of people running web applications instead of purchasing them from the store.

There is absolutely nothing altruistic about Apple's feud with Adobe: it's about money. Apple is a business. People seem to forget this frequently. Unlucky for Microsoft that in the mid-90's no one did the same to them.

Hermiod wrote: View Post
In general the main arguments against the iPhone seem to be from people who see some feature, often one that's an edge case that only they are interested in, that is missing and turn it in to a moral crusade.
The post of mine that you responded to is not an argument against the iPhone. It was instead me responding to a question someone asked as to why someone would choose an Android device over an iPhone. I've never understood why some people seem to think that picking a non-Apple product is equivalent to attacking Apple.

I don't care that you can't do any of the things I mentioned in said post with an iPhone because, well, I don't own one! For people who like the way Apple does things, they can keep buying iPhones and keep enjoying them. And for people who don't like them, they can buy other devices. You talking about how I'm an "edge case" entirely misses the point. Apple's products attempt to be one size fits all, which is great for some people and not so great for other people and so those other people are going to look elsewhere. Why is it so offensive to some that people buy non-Apple products?

Flash does suck. I rather hate it myself. But it should not be up to Apple or Google or Microsoft or any other company what standards the web uses. We've been down this road before and everytime a company tries to impose web standards because it helps their corporate interests, they get smacked down. But if Apple does it, it's okay? I'd prefer a non-hypocritical approach, thanks.

Small White Car wrote:
I totally believe your story, but if there are more Android+BB+Palm phones than iPhones (and more app sales for them then for iPhones) then why wouldn't it be backwards from what you described? Developers will write the cross-platform version first since that will see the most sales there and THEN write the iPhone version.

Right? Why do you think they'll go after the smaller number of sales first? Because that was how it worked in the past? It won't be that way in the future. The iPhone will never be a majority-product. It had a head-start in all this, but it won't last.
This is why: http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...es-in-2009.ars. Apple has a commanding lead in direct to consumer app sales. As of now, Apple's store is worth more then all their competitors combined. This is the reason why people would target the iPhone first rather then everything else... it's still the market leader in app sales and is the more lucrative space to be in. And that's why what policies Apple puts on its developers needs to be under scrutiny. This isn't some anti-Apple crusade on my part; if the situation was reversed and Google was trying to do the same thing you'd see me ranting just the same.

You're right that Apple's head start won't last... and I have no doubt that the reason Apple is behaving this way is because they know that and they're trying to fight it. Well great, let them fight it, but not if it means engaging in anti-competitive practices.
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Old June 1 2010, 06:38 PM   #41
jefferiestubes8
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vendoring censorship

Dusty Ayres wrote: View Post
Back to the government/non-government thing.
Because while many in comics see the iPad as a new frontier to be conquered and claimed, there are signs that something about the Apple is rotten.
How is this different than Wal-Mart the largest retailer refusing to carry music albums due to content within they do not like?

Apple is a retailer that sells downloadable content. Music, movies, books. Comics, E-Comics & E-Books fall under the books category.

Somehow people don't realize they have more than 1 choice for a vendor of a product.
Apple is just a vendor.
Wal-Mart is just a vendor.
Use another vendor.
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Old June 1 2010, 06:53 PM   #42
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Re: Apple – The New Comics Censors

Arrqh wrote: View Post
Again, that was my point. The original question I was responding to was "why would you want an Android phone instead of an iPhone."
No, you were responding to "what, specifically, can you do on an Android phone that you can't do on an iPhone?" Practically. You listed a whole bundle of theoretical things that made no difference in the end. It wasn't until several posts later that you brought up something specific, namely, your different home screen, dialer, and suchlike.

I wanted a specific example. "Buying apps Apple hasn't rejected arbitrarily" isn't a specific example. Which app? What has Apple forbidden you from installing that you get on Android, and which is able to so completely tip the balance away from anything else the iPhone may have going for it. That's what I want to know. "You can probably use Flash on it later" isn't a reason to buy an Android device.

Everything I said in response where things that you can do with an Android device that you cannot with an iPhone. Certainly not everyone will care about these things and I don't expect them too; I do and that's why I went with a Nexus One.
No offense, but I was directing the question at Stone_Cold_Sisko. I wanted to know which apps he couldn't install, how he wishes he could customize the home screen, how he'd prevent himself from throwing a Flash-enabled iPhone through a window in rage the first time he encountered an swf that was expressly designed with mouse-over as a vital part of its GUI.

He had an iPhone, and now he doesn't want it, and all he said why was "walled garden." I'm more interested in practical objections, not political ones. If there isn't anything you want outside the walls, what's the point?

Arrqh wrote: View Post
No, what I want is for no one company to be able to dictate what direction the web evolves in... especially one that has the potential of making financial gain if they can force something else out of the market. Apple's crusade against Flash has absolutely nothing to do with open standards; is has to do with Apple's stake in the H.264 patent fiasco and the threat of people running web applications instead of purchasing them from the store.
Really? How does this track with iPhone, year one? For that matter, how does it track with Apple's slobbering over HTML 5?

I'm sure I'm blanking, but off the top of my head, I can't think of any sort of web apps that are flash-based, excepting games and video players.
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Old June 1 2010, 10:07 PM   #43
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Re: vendoring censorship

jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
Dusty Ayres wrote: View Post
Back to the government/non-government thing.
Because while many in comics see the iPad as a new frontier to be conquered and claimed, there are signs that something about the Apple is rotten.
How is this different than Wal-Mart the largest retailer refusing to carry music albums due to content within they do not like?

Apple is a retailer that sells downloadable content. Music, movies, books. Comics, E-Comics & E-Books fall under the books category.

Somehow people don't realize they have more than 1 choice for a vendor of a product.
Apple is just a vendor.
Wal-Mart is just a vendor.
Use another vendor.
Exactly, I made the same point earlier. Same with the PS3/Xbox/Nintendo comparison. No one seems to give a shit, they just keep going on about how Apple is a monopoly.

Apple doesn't make open platforms. They've never made open platforms. Why people are up in arms about it now that their market capitalization is at an all time high I don't know, but they certainly aren't a monopoly.

I also have a bit of a problem when a company gets a giant market share through entirely legal means by either inventing or defining a segment and then get their heads handed to them because their competitors can't keep up or bring out a product consumers desire to have as much. If Apple hasn't done anything illegal, why should they be forced to do anything that would negatively impact their business?

"prohibiting agreements or practices that restrict free trading and competition between business"

Nope.

"abusive behaviour by a firm dominating a market, or anti-competitive practices that tend to lead to such a dominant position"

Nope.

"supervising the mergers and acquisitions of large corporations, including some joint ventures."

Nope.

So why should the government investigate them for a breach of anti-trust laws? Because they don't like Flash and limit the software they sell on the device they produce like almost every other content distributor in the world does?
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Old June 1 2010, 11:47 PM   #44
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Re: vendoring censorship

FordSVT wrote: View Post
So why should the government investigate them for a breach of anti-trust laws? Because they don't like Flash and limit the software they sell on the device they produce like almost every other content distributor in the world does?
There's only so many different ways I can say "Apple's policies are harming other platforms" before I run out of original phrasing.

For the nth time, this has nothing to do with Apple being a monopoly. If they are unfairly hurting their competitors then they're in violation of anti-trust laws. If my interpretation is correct (and obviously, I believe it is), then Apple is currently in violation because their policies are designed to stump cross platform development in the same way that Microsoft did in the mid 90s. How Apple rose to their current market position is not the issue; what they're doing with it now that they have it is.

And once again, comparing this to game consoles is flat out incorrect. None of the console platforms try to inhibit cross platform development in the manner that Apple is. Walmart is just a vendor, but Apple is both a vendor and a platform.
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Old June 2 2010, 07:40 PM   #45
Neeka Keet
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Re: vendoring censorship

This is capitalism, if companies that make Apple apps want to create the same apps for the the droid, or whatever other phones are out there then they can and vice versa. It'll take an investment, sure, but nobody said business was easy or cheap. That's like bitching that video game console manufacturing companies are partaking in monopolistic behavior for doing the same thing for decades.
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