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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 25 2010, 06:53 PM   #151
I-Am-Zim
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
This is getting ridiculous. If Star Trek can present a single timeline that goes ENT-TOS-TNG-etc, say TOS all takes place in one universe (despite huge contradictions), then the Kelvin can happily fit between ENT and TOS.

The Kelvin looks they way it does because they updated the TOS look for a modern movie. It's big becuase the script required 800 survivors. If you can't accept these things and move on I'm suprised you survived the needless changes made in TMP, let alone Enterprise. Nonetheless, just like has happened since TOS, fans can make up excuses for every gaff, changed premise and outright contradiction if they want to.

I get that you don't want this film to hurt or make you re-evaluate your TOS worldview, but guess what? It's done. You don't like it? Fine - ignore it. End of story. Trying to "prove" to everyone your fanon viewpoint is the correct one using more and more obscure reasoning ("sharp edged saucer"?) is a waste.
Unfortunately, the same can be said of those who embrace the abramsverse as the "new Trek" and try to discount the (sometimes) legitimate claims of those of us who don't share their opinions. Those who approve of the abramsverse and the (quite obvious) changes made to the TOS universe by JJA attemp to discount the claims from the other camp by simply saying things like "but guess what? It's done. You don't like it? Fine - ignore it. End of story", or something to that effect. And that's fine. However, those of us who would rather have our Star Trek the way it was instead of trying to force feed us this new alternate universe BS, prefer to actually give reasons for our arguments instead of just saying "I don't like this or that because it all sucks so get over it!" or something to that effect. Telling people that they need to get over it, or that it's done and there's nothing you can do about it, etc. etc. doesn't help the situation. So what if the discussion goes round in circles? That's what a discussion board is for. Discussion. One side is not going to change the other's opoinion. But that doesn't mean that the "haters", or "canonists" as we're often called, don't have a right to voice our opinions as well as the gushers do.
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Old May 25 2010, 08:48 PM   #152
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

This is getting ridiculous.
Getting? No, its been quite ridiculous for awhile now.
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Old May 25 2010, 08:53 PM   #153
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
This is getting ridiculous. If Star Trek can present a single timeline that goes ENT-TOS-TNG-etc,
It can't. Enterprise is nothing but continuity errors and horrifying lazy writing.

say TOS all takes place in one universe (despite huge contradictions), then the Kelvin can happily fit between ENT and TOS.

The Kelvin looks they way it does because they updated the TOS look for a modern movie. It's big becuase the script required 800 survivors. If you can't accept these things and move on I'm suprised you survived the needless changes made in TMP, let alone Enterprise. Nonetheless, just like has happened since TOS, fans can make up excuses for every gaff, changed premise and outright contradiction if they want to.

I get that you don't want this film to hurt or make you re-evaluate your TOS worldview, but guess what? It's done. You don't like it? Fine - ignore it. End of story. Trying to "prove" to everyone your fanon viewpoint is the correct one using more and more obscure reasoning ("sharp edged saucer"?) is a waste.
Except of course, that isn't a fanon viewpoint, it's simply the way the movie was written; and if you can't see the difference between the TOS-saucer and the Kelvin/TMP/nPrise saucer :shrugs: you need glasses. Even lovers of the JJPrise and the new Trek have pointed out the similarities.
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Old May 25 2010, 10:10 PM   #154
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

3D Master wrote: View Post
Enterprise is nothing but continuity errors and horrifying lazy writing.
That may be true, but it is still a Paramount-authorized and official prequel to TOS, regardless of your personal feelings about the show. And on that basis, there's nothing to indicate that the Kelvin couldn't fit a design lineage somewhere between the NX-01 and the TOS Enterprise. It certainly looked fine to me.
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Old May 25 2010, 11:31 PM   #155
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
Enterprise is nothing but continuity errors and horrifying lazy writing.
That may be true, but it is still a Paramount-authorized and official prequel to TOS, regardless of your personal feelings about the show. And on that basis, there's nothing to indicate that the Kelvin couldn't fit a design lineage somewhere between the NX-01 and the TOS Enterprise. It certainly looked fine to me.
I disagree. Even if you take ENT into account, it still doesn't look like it fits within the design lineage at all.
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Old May 25 2010, 11:55 PM   #156
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

It does fit (as does Enterprise) if you accept that the look has been modernized. A visual update does not equal an alternate universe.

IMO the Enterprise in TOS-R should have had similar detailing to what we saw in the Kelvin - visible hull plates, thrusters, phaser turrets, weathering and so forth.
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Old May 26 2010, 12:41 AM   #157
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

But because it doesn't proves one thing: they aren't trying to create an ironclad, completely cohesive canon. It isn't designed to stand up to the level of scrutiny the fanbase examines it at.

The best we can hope for are occasional moments that make our assholes tighten with excitement because some prior event was referenced making us momentarily believe in a pure Canon but it is all just an illusion.
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Old May 26 2010, 12:46 AM   #158
Set Harth
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

-Brett- wrote: View Post
So the Romulans can figure out warp drive, but somehow razor blades, needles, and ink are beyond them?
You know the rule: if it wasn't shown on screen it didn't happen.

Including bowel movements.

harvey wrote:
For one thing, Nero and his crew have them--the make-up is just more subtle than it was on TNG and DS9. Second, we've seen Romulans without forehead ridges in the 23rd century (both Star Trek as well as TFF and TUC). Third, we've seen Romulans with forehead ridges in the 22nd century on Enterprise. Fourth, we saw Spock blending into a crowd of Romulans in "Unification," despite having no forehead ridges. It stands to reason, then, that there is some variation of the ridges among Romulans.
Also, Nero's wife has noticeable forehead ridges of the TNG class.
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Old May 26 2010, 01:15 AM   #159
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
If they actually expect anyone (well...TOS fans at least) to believe that OldSpock and Nero came from the Trekverse that we know and love, then they should have at least made some effort to connect it to the original.
Which they did. Including dialogue lifted directly from TWOK/TSFS and a character arc lifted from TNG, among many other things such as references to events first described in TOS episodes. In fact, the original deal was apparently something like "No Nimoy, no film". (Of course, that was clearly an attempt to generate viewers' interest through the appearance of an alternate Spock which they'd never heard of or cared about before, rather than the one they were already familiar with. )
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Old May 26 2010, 02:09 AM   #160
Dukhat
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

3D Master wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
Enterprise is nothing but continuity errors and horrifying lazy writing.
That may be true, but it is still a Paramount-authorized and official prequel to TOS, regardless of your personal feelings about the show. And on that basis, there's nothing to indicate that the Kelvin couldn't fit a design lineage somewhere between the NX-01 and the TOS Enterprise. It certainly looked fine to me.
I disagree. Even if you take ENT into account, it still doesn't look like it fits within the design lineage at all.
And I disagree with you. So I guess that makes us even.
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Old May 26 2010, 01:14 PM   #161
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

Needs rare red matter for that.
Not necessarily. There are many other technobabbly ways to close temporal rifts. We've seen them countless times in the original Trek universe.
No for the love of all that is holy drop the f@#king technobabble nobody wants it back.
Speak for yourself. I have no problem with technobabble, when used in moderation. A little technobabble can go a long way when used to explain certain rediculous contrivances to make them sound less stupid (transwarp beaming, anyone?).
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Old May 26 2010, 01:19 PM   #162
I-Am-Zim
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Set Harth wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
If they actually expect anyone (well...TOS fans at least) to believe that OldSpock and Nero came from the Trekverse that we know and love, then they should have at least made some effort to connect it to the original.
Which they did. Including dialogue lifted directly from TWOK/TSFS and a character arc lifted from TNG, among many other things such as references to events first described in TOS episodes. In fact, the original deal was apparently something like "No Nimoy, no film". (Of course, that was clearly an attempt to generate viewers' interest through the appearance of an alternate Spock which they'd never heard of or cared about before, rather than the one they were already familiar with. )
Like I said, if they had really wanted us to believe that OldSpock was, indeed the Spock we know, then they should have written him to resemble the Spock we know. The Spock in STXI didn't remind me of the original Spock. The only reason Mr. Nimoy was in this movie was for the "wow" factor of seeing one last appearance of one member of the old cast. Simply using recycled dialogue and storylines from past Trek along with numerous cliche' lines and scenes that felt forced at best do not necessarily "connect" the Abramsverse to the original Trek universe. All it does is show that the two separate universes are different but have subtle similarities.
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Old May 26 2010, 05:53 PM   #163
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

I disagree with him as well. The trend is good...
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Old May 26 2010, 05:55 PM   #164
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

I hate technobabble.
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Old May 26 2010, 06:21 PM   #165
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Technobabble was overdue a deserving death in 1998.

Of course, without it every Voyager episode would have been about 8 minutes long
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