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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 22 2010, 11:07 AM   #256
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Where did Spock go?

elton wrote: View Post
"Matters"? To who?...

...The original Star Trek show does not and will not "matter" to anyone other than those who follow it a little too obsessively. Ditto with the spin-offs, the movies that followed it, and the new Star Trek movie.
Exactly. These things matter to those of us who like them. Investing any negative feelings toward versions of them or people who disagree about them is...perhaps the purview of intense fandom, but a waste of time and life nonetheless.

That the current movie is a success and that the overwhelming majority of Star Trek fans like and accept it has required continual moving of the goal posts for "success" on the part of those who disdain it. When we've reached the point of "in the long run you'll be proven wrong and we'll be proven right, just you wait and see" it's pretty clear that the attacks on the thing have just run completely out of ammunition.
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Old May 22 2010, 11:43 AM   #257
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Re: Where did Spock go?

elton wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
And when ST09 is a largely forgotten project from many summers past TOS will still be there as the one that still matters.
"Matters"? To who?

I badly want to say "get a life" right now. Wait... I just did.

In what way is this 60's television show going to "matter" to anyone but incredibly bitter fanatics like you?

The original Star Trek show does not and will not "matter" to anyone other than those who follow it a little too obsessively. Ditto with the spin-offs, the movies that followed it, and the new Star Trek movie.

They're all equal in this regard: They do not matter, people do not care. 99% of people do not care about the new Star Trek film anymore than they care about The Dark Knight at this point. Which, I would imagine, is probably still more than they care for 60's Star Trek.

Why? It's a television show, therefore not worth the effort.
TOS inspired a lot of viewers and was assimilated into the broader collective consciousness. It is a visual document and a glimpse into another time. It shows how some ideas and concepts are timeless and universal. And it is immediately recognizable in many respects. Future generations will see that just as successive generations of viewers have. Yes, it's a television show, but if it didn't matter on some level we wouldn't be here debating it after forty years.

ST09 will be just another barely remembered summer flick with no depth or redeeming value other than a waste of two hours you'll never get back.

I always marvel at those who profess to like something yet never miss a chance to demean it. It is a very recognizable behaviour of what's known as a self loathing fan.
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Old May 22 2010, 12:01 PM   #258
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Re: Where did Spock go?

elton wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
And when ST09 is a largely forgotten project from many summers past TOS will still be there as the one that still matters.
"Matters"? To who?

I badly want to say "get a life" right now. Wait... I just did.

In what way is this 60's television show going to "matter" to anyone but incredibly bitter fanatics like you?

The original Star Trek show does not and will not "matter" to anyone other than those who follow it a little too obsessively. Ditto with the spin-offs, the movies that followed it, and the new Star Trek movie.

They're all equal in this regard: They do not matter, people do not care. 99% of people do not care about the new Star Trek film anymore than they care about The Dark Knight at this point. Which, I would imagine, is probably still more than they care for 60's Star Trek.

Why? It's a television show, therefore not worth the effort.
*Applauds*
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Old May 22 2010, 12:40 PM   #259
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
TOS inspired a lot of viewers and was assimilated into the broader collective consciousness. It is a visual document and a glimpse into another time. It shows how some ideas and concepts are timeless and universal.
Well, to you, it is those things.

To lots more people, it's a 60's television show, and does not and will never "matter" in the manner you describe.

ST09 will be just another barely remembered summer flick with no depth or redeeming value other than a waste of two hours you'll never get back.
Again, to you.

To lots more people, it was an enjoyable movie and they were happy with the result, moreso than had they sat and watched episodes of that old series that they "barely remember".

Warped9 wrote: View Post
I always marvel at those who profess to like something yet never miss a chance to demean it. It is a very recognizable behaviour of what's known as a self loathing fan.
Refusing to obsess over it to the level that you do does not demean it. It's a good television show. However, even good television shows do not matter. Star Trek 09 also does not matter. It's a movie.

Star Trek 09 matters to most people as much as TOS did. That is to say... not at all.

This much is clear though: You are that outcast fan who wanted to know the combination to Kirk's safe, 20 years older and a hell of a lot more bitter for it.
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Old May 22 2010, 12:56 PM   #260
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Re: Where did Spock go?

'barely remember' ? May you be remembered as well as other cultural icons as Shirley Temple and the Beatles. Talk about what doesn't matter.
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Old May 22 2010, 01:02 PM   #261
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Well, I'm not a 60's television show or a rock band, so... I'll live with that.

Most people are as familiar with Star Trek as they are with Star Wars (Which I'm sure Warped9 will argue is somehow "different" despite being as memorable in the general populace as Star Trek, not to mention an influence in Abrams' version of Star Trek) and a variety of other television shows and movies, which is to say they know a few common details, phasers and lightsabers, Luke Skywalker and Captain Kirk... but that's about it.
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Old May 22 2010, 01:12 PM   #262
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Most people also remember Beethoven for the first four notes of his fifth symphony and thats it.

Last edited by xortex; May 22 2010 at 01:24 PM.
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Old May 22 2010, 01:19 PM   #263
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Which means that most people don't remember Beethoven's fifth symphony.
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Old May 22 2010, 01:58 PM   #264
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Where did Spock go?

elton wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
TOS inspired a lot of viewers and was assimilated into the broader collective consciousness. It is a visual document and a glimpse into another time. It shows how some ideas and concepts are timeless and universal.
Well, to you, it is those things.

To lots more people, it's a 60's television show, and does not and will never "matter" in the manner you describe.

ST09 will be just another barely remembered summer flick with no depth or redeeming value other than a waste of two hours you'll never get back.
Again, to you.

To lots more people, it was an enjoyable movie and they were happy with the result, moreso than had they sat and watched episodes of that old series that they "barely remember".

Warped9 wrote: View Post
I always marvel at those who profess to like something yet never miss a chance to demean it. It is a very recognizable behaviour of what's known as a self loathing fan.
Refusing to obsess over it to the level that you do does not demean it. It's a good television show. However, even good television shows do not matter. Star Trek 09 also does not matter. It's a movie.

Star Trek 09 matters to most people as much as TOS did. That is to say... not at all.

This much is clear though: You are that outcast fan who wanted to know the combination to Kirk's safe, 20 years older and a hell of a lot more bitter for it.
Anyone who posts regularly on this board and throws the "get a life" stone is living not in a house made of glass but rather of sugar.
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Last edited by Brutal Strudel; May 22 2010 at 03:08 PM.
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Old May 22 2010, 02:48 PM   #265
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Where did Spock go?

elton wrote: View Post
Refusing to obsess over it to the level that you do does not demean it. It's a good television show. However, even good television shows do not matter. Star Trek 09 also does not matter. It's a movie.
I don't understand why people have a problem with this.

Keeping entertainment in perspective doesn't "demean" or belittle it. Frankly, asking something like Star Trek to bear the burden of too much importance has not often been good for the quality of the shows and movies.

The people making TOS did the very best job they could, every week, and moved on to the next show. It's hard to imagine that any of them would have been comfortable with the notion of people treating it as a holy artifact fifty years later.

I went to order new checks yesterday and discovered that one of my choices was "I Love Lucy" - you know, five different iconic images of Lucille Ball from memorable episodes. I didn't order those, but I smiled - that show, that character are as beloved and well known today as they ever were. I certainly hope that there are no Lucy message boards inhabited by people sniping over whether those who also enjoyed "The Lucy Show" are gullible simpletons who've had the wool pulled over their eyes, etc. etc...
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Old May 22 2010, 03:22 PM   #266
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Takes two to tango, though--and a lot more more for a good old fashioned clusterfuck. If Warped9 is obsessive and pathetic for mooting the argument, those who feel the need to come back at him again and again and again and again are, at the very least, just as obsessive and pathetic. If any of us had any perspective we would not be here.

Any discussion of fictive reality is ultimately just a game, anyway: a strong argument can be made that, meta-fictionally, all of Star Trek is either written by or based on ideas created by a black science fiction writer who suffered a psychotic break in the 1950s--after all, the tortured black genius Richard Daystrom "echoes" Benjamin Russell's "I created it!" (I develop this idea here) Likewise, Trek, in establishing an infinitely branching multiverse has given Trek '09 the ultimate "Get out of FAIL Free" card. (I develop this idea here) I find it infinitely more sad that so many people get so sanctimoniously upset when Warped9 and others try to play it. "It's just a movie" works both ways.
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Old May 22 2010, 04:55 PM   #267
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Anyone who posts regularly on this board and throws the "get a life" stone is living not in a house made of glass but rather of sugar.
Since I don't post regularly on the TOS board... happy days for me.
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Takes two to tango, though--and a lot more more for a good old fashioned clusterfuck. If Warped9 is obsessive and pathetic for mooting the argument, those who feel the need to come back at him again and again and again and again are, at the very least, just as obsessive and pathetic. If any of us had any perspective we would not be here.
Can't disagree.
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Old May 22 2010, 05:00 PM   #268
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
If Warped9 is obsessive and pathetic for mooting the argument, those who feel the need to come back at him again and again and again and again are, at the very least, just as obsessive and pathetic. If any of us had any perspective we would not be here.
Well...yes and no. You have a point, but - not surprisingly - I don't see it as quite so symmetrical.

As you pointed out uptopic, anyone who spends a lot of time here is fairly invested in Star Trek. That said, for some there's almost always something going on with Trek that we like, a lot, and that presents a current reason for our interest.

DS9 and Voyager largely bored me, but I liked Enterprise a lot and I like the current Abrams version a great deal. I like, but don't love, the Trek Remastered shows (and of course I have a rooting interest in fan art and film activities).

IOW, since at least the turn of the century there's been some current reason for me to be interested in what's going on with Star Trek as an ongoing series of entertainments. So there's always something interesting to talk with other enthusiasts about.

OTOH...the OP makes it clear repeatedly in a variety of ways that virtually nothing that's occurred with Trek in the last thirty years suits him very much. And yet here he is, almost every day, as well - essentially trying to win an argument with the rest of the world. And somehow, for some reason, at a Star Trek board(!) he finds himself surrounded by people who like Star Trek and like the very things he despises - ie, almost anything produced after 1980 (and how many people here weren't even born, then?) - and feel it's their right to say so right in front of him.

He tries repeatedly to construct topics and direct conversation in such a way as to rule out or dismiss the other POV and it isn't working. Never has, never will.

Beyond which, everyone who expresses a contrary opinion - even us obsessives - aren't doggedly committed to turning the conversation right back around to the most narrow, insulting terms possible. Two pages ago you made some nice moderate observations and in response I tried to turn the discussion toward a more generally pleasant (I hoped) recollection of remakes, good and bad sf movies in general. Yet somehow two pages later we're back to gnashing teeth because someone won't let go of the bone.

One of these things is not quite like the other, and the problem with "all things being equal..." is that all things never are.
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Old May 22 2010, 05:36 PM   #269
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Where did Spock go?

It was kinda civil a couple of pages ago. I miss that.

We all have our own Star Trek universes, canon be damned--I have several (and being a fan of Philip K. Dick, this is easy for me): one in which TOS takes place near the turn of the twenty-second and twenty-third centuries and exists in a universe devoid of Ferengi, Borg, Hirogen and even my beloved Cardassians; another in which it takes place in the late twenty-third century and feeds into all of its sequel and prequel spin-offs, and yes, one where it is all written by (or at inspired by stories written by) Benny Russell. It's wave and particle and dessert topping and floor wax.

Ultimately, though, if "And the Children Shall Lead" can exist in the same extended reality as "Amok Time," I suppose Trek '09 can exist there too. Probably best if I let that half-hearted olive branch be my final word on the subject.

As usual, though, Dennis, you've given me something to think about.
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Old May 22 2010, 08:22 PM   #270
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Re: Where did Spock go?

When Vonda N. McIntyre penned the excellent novelization of The Wrath of Khan, she "fleshed it out" to the point that it was a semi-alternate universe. One of the ideas she inserted was that Human cadets enter the Starfleet Academy at age thirteen, at one point Carol Marcus said she was afraid Kirk would have came and collect David when he was thirteen.

If the universe Spock originally came from had a similar policy, it might have been reasonable for Spock to expect a Kirk in the second half of his twenties to in fact to be in command of the Enterprise. Given a five year "head start" where Kirk was in his career in his early thirties in the TOS universe is where he was by his late twenties in old Spock's origin universe.

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