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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 21 2010, 02:06 AM   #226
Kelso
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Re: Where did Spock go?

1) Kirk is, at most, 5-8 years younger than when he took command of the Enterprise ... which occurred more than 120 years ago from Spock's perspective.

2) Spock knows the timeline has been altered.

Keep graspin' at those straws.
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Old May 21 2010, 02:10 AM   #227
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE, BECAUSE STONE COLD BAILEY SAID SO!!
You're starting to get it.
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Old May 21 2010, 02:13 AM   #228
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Kelso wrote: View Post
elton wrote: View Post
It works for anyone who hasn't went off the deep-end of creepy obsessive fandom.
No, it works for me, too.
Self-awareness. It's a beautiful thing.

I personally think of Trek '09 as a full-scale reboot and LN's presence--delightful as it was--as a mere fig leaf. In a way, it was a cameo not entirely dissimilar from the cameos of the surviving LiS TOS cast members in the horrible Lost in Space movie. But I really don't care if anybody else sees it my way or not nor do I care what the authorial intent may be since the true authors of Trek (as opposed to the legal authors) are looooong out of the picture.
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Old May 21 2010, 02:43 AM   #229
Luther Sloan
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Re: Where did Spock go?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
You're interpreting everything after First Contact and the others as changed timelines when the intent is that they were predestination paradoxes. There obviously had to be an original timeline prior to the various loops beginning, but IMO we never saw it.
KD:

Well, you just argued my point for me. If there was an original time line that had not been altered yet, chances are we were looking at it prior to First Contact. However, you feel that the Borg traveling back in Earth's history had already happened (as a traditional predestination paradox). Which would mean that the temporal incursion at First Contact had already happened before Picard went back in time. But how do you know that? We never saw any hint or clues to this effect. There was no evidence prior to First Contact that suggests that the event at First Contact was altered by time.

So you may say you never seen the Original Time Line prior to First Contact. But I say to you that we never seen the Pre-destination Paradox prior to First Contact (the film) either.

However, we do see that the events of First Contact have in fact effected the time stream afterwards, though. Which would suggest that we are now looking at the changed time line.

Now, lets say for the sake of argument that First Contact was pre-destination paradox prior to the film (as it is normally defined):

What about the technological advancements we see on Star Trek: Enterprise? The temporal cold war had not involved the humans in Broken Bow just yet. So their time line shouldn't have been altered by it yet. This leaves the explanation that Picard and crew had in fact influenced their own time line. Which in effect, caused man to advance more technologically quicker.

Why didn't Cochrane seem surprised or make a comment about Kirk being from a ship called the "Enterprise". I mean, it is a rather large coincidence. I don't think he would have not said anything or not have some type of reaction when they said the name Enterprise.

We've had proof that the Enterprise timeline was changed by at least two big events ("Shockwave" and the Xindi attack), but the way I see it nowadays, TOS, TNG and the rest are all the result of this tampering.
Enterprise was changed by the Temporal Cold War in the beginning of Broken Bow. The time line was altered by genetically enhanced soldiers (Suliban) taking orders from someone in the future.

Don't get me wrong, you can believe what you want and there is loads of evidence to support your claims. Owing to the way the multiverse theory works you could argue an episode takes place in an alternate universe where the only difference is that Uhura applied her socks left-first instead of right-first today. Where do you draw the line between continuity errors and alternate universes?
Within the context of the universe: there are no continuity errors. There is a reasonable explanation for everything within Star Trek. The most ridiculous of scenes or moments can be explained as practical joke by a Q or some higher powered being. Other blunders can be explained that it was a change within the time line (that is if there was a recent temporal incursion). Why do I bother explaining the errors on the series when I know they are actually mistakes? Well, why bother to believe in warp drive when I know it isn't real? For the same reason I choose to suspend disbelief in a fictional universe in the first place. I want to enjoy the story and the richness of it's universe (without letting reality or continuity errors ruin my enjoyment of it).

I mean, the way I see it, why spoil the fun?



I just take a more relaxed view of continuity gaffs, broken reverse-continuity and the rest.
Yeah, I imagine a lot folks just ignore them and view them as for what they are or what they should have been.

However, part of the fun for me is to explain away the stupidity and validate everything that is within the Trek-verse (even Paris and Janeway's intimate moment together as lizards) .

Last edited by Luther Sloan; May 21 2010 at 03:54 AM.
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Old May 21 2010, 03:11 AM   #230
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Re: Where did Spock go?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
With all due respect to the character, in the grand plan of the universe how important or irreplaceable was Lily? The impression I received was that she was to be one of the crewmembers on the first flight, either in Riker's or LaForge's position. But how many people can remember the name of the flight engineer on the B-29 that dropped Chuck Yeager's plane the on day he broke the sound barrior?
T-Girl:

Well, after Picard's little show and tell of the future to Lily: I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't slit Cochrane's throat open and drink from it in order to take all the glory.



The thing is that she might have played a minor role in the original time line. But now all that has changed seeing Picard buttered her up and turned her into some kind of larger than life person within history.

Picard should have shut his trap and stunned her as many times as needed.

Hello? Did we forget the Temporal Prime Directive?

I thought one of the most interesting changes, an obvious change, was that on the wall on the observation lounge behind the bridge there were previous ships that had been named enterprise (Human only and Starfleet). Prior to FC, Archer's ship was absent, after FC it was present. I believe that Cochrane push to have the first long range explorer starship named Enterprise and that in the original timeline he didn't. Archer's ship still existed and Archer was still the Captain, but the ship held a different name.
Yes. Yes. This is the type of gold that I try to dig up and give to people. Definitely awesome little nuggets. For all who want to see it of course.
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Old May 21 2010, 03:18 AM   #231
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Re: Where did Spock go?

This thread is what happens when people take Star Trek as an act of religious devotion.

Been there, done that... moved on.
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Old May 21 2010, 03:27 AM   #232
Luther Sloan
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Re: Where did Spock go?

No religious devotion of Trek here. I realize and still think it is a work of fiction. Now, making that fiction make sense so I can enjoy it a little better is more a personal past time or hobby. Now, that's a different matter.

But I don't decorate my house in Trek, nor do I run to the super market in a uniform. Nor do I mention Star Trek at all to a girl until we have become a little more serious. Unless of course she is a nerd and or a Trekkie herself.

As for everyone else. I can't speak to that effect. I don't know everyone.
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Old May 21 2010, 05:37 AM   #233
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
We don't know when Prime Kirk and Spock met. At all. Your assumptions say they didn't meet until TOS, nothing more.
He knows what Kirk looked like when Kirk took command. That's all he needs to know.
It seems like you're arguing that it couldn't have been the "real" Spock because the Spock from the TV show would have noticed that Kirk was being played by a different actor now.
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Old May 21 2010, 06:28 AM   #234
Sharr Khan
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Luther Sloan wrote: View Post
No religious devotion of Trek here. I realize and still think it is a work of fiction. Now, making that fiction make sense so I can enjoy it a little better is more a personal past time or hobby. Now, that's a different matter.

But I don't decorate my house in Trek, nor do I run to the super market in a uniform. Nor do I mention Star Trek at all to a girl until we have become a little more serious. Unless of course she is a nerd and or a Trekkie herself.

As for everyone else. I can't speak to that effect. I don't know everyone.
I was speaking in a broad sense.
However I used to obsess over this stuff - to a point where I created useless stress upon myself, and got really offended when others did not take it as umm serious.

Sure I love thinking out some of the apparent contradictions and or try to reconcile odd (what I from a fan pov none needed) "changes" intended or by omission across the shows and episodes.

And then I began to look at it all from the show runner/writers shoes and it made me a much less obsessive person about the whole deal.

I don't think even GR took it all so super serious - well, not until he began to buy his own hype that is later in life.
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Old May 21 2010, 07:06 AM   #235
Captain Robert April
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Well, it cuts both ways.

Spock Prime did not come from the TOS universe; the movie is not connected to the TOS universe and is a "clean reboot." The assertions otherwise here are not based on "on-screen evidence" but on narrow, subjective interpretations of details in the movie being wedged to fit into a preconceived, preferred conclusion.
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Old May 21 2010, 10:07 AM   #236
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Well, it cuts both ways.

Spock Prime did not come from the TOS universe; the movie is not connected to the TOS universe and is a "clean reboot." The assertions otherwise here are not based on "on-screen evidence" but on narrow, subjective interpretations of details in the movie being wedged to fit into a preconceived, preferred conclusion.
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Old May 21 2010, 02:57 PM   #237
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
I personally think of Trek '09 as a full-scale reboot and LN's presence--delightful as it was--as a mere fig leaf.
This is true.

In a way, it was a cameo not entirely dissimilar from the cameos of the surviving LiS TOS cast members in the horrible Lost in Space movie.
I bought the LIS movie on DVD about two years ago as research and must say I quite like it - but then, although I enjoyed the LIS series as a kid I can't say that I've ever had much respect for it.

In fact, while trying to generally survey as much of Hollywood's space opera/sf adventure output as possible while working on my own project I've discovered a number of guilty pleasures - basically what might be described as kitschy "B-movie" flicks with extravagant premises and ambitious scenarios but unencumbered by sufficient budgets or on-screen talent. Among those would be Verhoeven's Starship Troopers and the Wing Commander movie.

I'll serve under Saffron Burrows any day.
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Old May 21 2010, 03:12 PM   #238
xortex
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Starship Troopers is my favorite movie as it always makes me cry. Diz was a citizen of the Federation. and Armeggedon is a great movie and I even liked Battlefield Earth. I mean what was wrong with it? I think Lis had a good story.
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Old May 21 2010, 03:28 PM   #239
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Actually, Starship Troopers is a pretty successful movie in most respects - it just wasn't the movie that Heinlein fans wanted. Some of the satire is wicked (and a lot of the parody is heavyhanded).

Verhoeven has always had a knack for wringing moments of both empathy and horror out of the most superficial action cliches (Murphy losing his hand in Robocop, for example). The sustained lack of feeling in Starship Troopers is neither an accident nor a misjudgment, IMAO.
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Old May 21 2010, 05:03 PM   #240
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Dennis wrote: View Post
Actually, Starship Troopers is a pretty successful movie in most respects - it just wasn't the movie that Heinlein fans wanted. Some of the satire is wicked (and a lot of the parody is heavyhanded).

The sustained lack of feeling in Starship Troopers is neither an accident nor a misjudgment, IMAO.
Starship Troopers bombed at the box office because people didn't get it. I laughed through so much of it, but the general audience isn't looking for that kind of disguised humor. The conventions of the films they enjoyed were being skewered and, as with The Last Action Hero, they resisted. But LAH was indeed a crappy film. But I still laughed.

Personally, I always thought RoboCop succeeded, not because the audience was particularly insightful, but because they had no idea it was satirical. They just considered it a good movie ("those commercials were fun-nee!"). The sequels overplayed the "satire" and forgot the "good" part.
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