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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: How do you feel about TNG?
I love TNG, both it and DS9 are excellent 67 44.97%
I like TNG, but I prefer DS9 58 38.93%
TNG was okay, I have no strong feelings 13 8.72%
I disliked TNG, DS9 was the superior show 4 2.68%
I loath TNG, it ruined everything 2 1.34%
I'm not a Niner but I want to vote for the comic option 5 3.36%
Voters: 149. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 21 2010, 12:06 AM   #61
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

Had Picard confined his comments to the Mintakan situation and to the Federation's role in abrogating a free choice made by the Mintakans--instead of extending it to ALL believers in ALL religions--I wouldn't have had a problem. But the generalization I found offensive and quite frankly, what it suggests about what happened to humanity as they moved into their "utopia" is scary. I just hope it was exile, and not something worse.
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Old May 21 2010, 01:30 AM   #62
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

^ I agree Nerys, it is worrysome. However, what strikes me as odd is that there are some Humans who continue to hold on to their religious/spiritual beliefs into the 24th century - look no farther than Chakotay for that. Also, we know that the major Western religions, at least Christianity, survived until the time of ENT - as Phlox at one point says he attended a mass at St. Peter's in Rome and familiarized himself with other Earth religions.

What I'll like to know is what happened to the major religions of the world between the 22nd and 24th centuries that caused them all to virtually disappear, but left other, less widespread ones, in place.

As a side-note, from a production point-of-view, I find it highly disturbing that TPTB are essentially saying that some religions, like Chakotay's, are okay, but others, like Christianity, are not. You can't have it both ways. Either Humans have no religions at all anymore, or it's okay for them all to still exist.
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Old May 21 2010, 01:52 AM   #63
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Had Picard confined his comments to the Mintakan situation and to the Federation's role in abrogating a free choice made by the Mintakans--instead of extending it to ALL believers in ALL religions--I wouldn't have had a problem. But the generalization I found offensive and quite frankly, what it suggests about what happened to humanity as they moved into their "utopia" is scary. I just hope it was exile, and not something worse.
Picard is not that bad, he's just written that way.

When I watch it now, TNG is often unbearable, particularly in its early seasons, mostly for these kind of speeches. Fortunately, they stopped (for the most part) doing that as Roddenberry's influence lowered and as a bunch of new and better [than those who worked in season 1 and 2] writers (Piller, Moore, Braga, Echevarria, Behr, Fields...) scripts were good for the most part while she was on TNG) came aboard. Not that we still didn't occasionally get an "Earth society is perfect" speech (Troi in Time's Arrow,pt 2) or an absurd and infuriating interpretation of the Prime Directive (Homeward)... But there are quite a few episodes that feel like proto-DS9, so it would be really difficult for a Niner to dislike all of TNG.

My in-universe explanation is that we shouldn't take everything that Picard says as a literal truth. When a foreign diplomat (which Picard is in a way, among other things) starts telling you how wonderful his country is, it's normal to take it with a grain of salt, as there's always propaganda involved.I'm sure he believes in what he says, but it seems like he tends to generalize and exaggerate a lot, and that he's often talking about the Human race as he would like them to be, rather than what they are. He says that there is no money in the Federation and that Humans are not driven by profit, yet his brother is a landowner and small-time businessman. I wonder if he even has a clue about how things really are back on Earth, since he spends most of the time in space, meeting aliens and contrasting their cultures and societies to the idealized Earth society. If he talks in a way that suggests that Humans are not religious anymore, I take it in the meaning that the percentage of religious people has gone down compared to the previous centuries, and they're not a majority anymore, and that the role of religion in society is diminished - not that there aren't still many religious people. After all, we know that traditional religious holidays still exist and haven't been renamed or re-interpreted to fit an atheist mindset (Hindu Festival of Lights, Christmas), and yeah, there's also Chakotay or the native American colonists from "Journey's End".

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I know that sometimes when DS9 is mentioned to her in interviews she calls it "Deep Sleep Nine", which doesn't make much sense considering the fact that DS9 is the epic war series while her show was the one about that stuffy English guy that flies around the galaxy giving speeches.

(No, that was not a slight against TNG, I happen to enjoy many of Picard's speeches.)
I didn't know that. Now I feel really good thinking about that time when she unsuccessfully campaigned for getting a guest starring role in BSG. I remember when those interview/interviews appeared before season 4 and were discussed on Skiffy BSG forum, pretty much everyone was either appalled or laughing at her and saying "hell no, Ron is not crazy". The news that Nana Visitor would appear in season 4, OTOH, was greeted enthusiastically by posters familiar with Trek.
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Old May 21 2010, 02:43 AM   #64
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

Marina's impression of the show may be a bit biased by behind-the-scenes stuff rather than what happened onscreen. For example, Michael Dorn has said in interviews that he had much more fun on the set of TNG than on DS9, and since Dorn and Marina are friends she probably took that to mean that the show itself was boring. Also, Marina was friends with Terry Farrell from before Farrell got the job on DS9, so the somewhat acrimonious departure of Farrell from the show might also have caused Marina to side against it.

That's my guess at any rate, but that's because I can't see how anyone could consider DS9 boring.

PKTrekGirl wrote: View Post
Picard is the guy you'd want to be your lawyer if you ever went to tax court or something.

The fun factor for Picard is WAAAAAAYYYY down.
I don't know, I think he's fun. He sits at his desk most of the day reading stuff on his computer while drinking tea. He acts aloof, smug and sanctimonious. He complains about young people.

He's like me, but with a Yorkshire accent.
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Old May 21 2010, 03:01 AM   #65
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Had Picard confined his comments to the Mintakan situation and to the Federation's role in abrogating a free choice made by the Mintakans--instead of extending it to ALL believers in ALL religions--I wouldn't have had a problem. But the generalization I found offensive and quite frankly, what it suggests about what happened to humanity as they moved into their "utopia" is scary. I just hope it was exile, and not something worse.
Picard is not that bad, he's just written that way.

When I watch it now, TNG is often unbearable, particularly in its early seasons, mostly for these kind of speeches. Fortunately, they stopped (for the most part) doing that as Roddenberry's influence lowered and as a bunch of new and better [than those who worked in season 1 and 2] writers (Piller, Moore, Braga, Echevarria, Behr, Fields...) scripts were good for the most part while she was on TNG) came aboard. Not that we still didn't occasionally get an "Earth society is perfect" speech (Troi in Time's Arrow,pt 2) or an absurd and infuriating interpretation of the Prime Directive (Homeward)... But there are quite a few episodes that feel like proto-DS9, so it would be really difficult for a Niner to dislike all of TNG.

My in-universe explanation is that we shouldn't take everything that Picard says as a literal truth. When a foreign diplomat (which Picard is in a way, among other things) starts telling you how wonderful his country is, it's normal to take it with a grain of salt, as there's always propaganda involved.I'm sure he believes in what he says, but it seems like he tends to generalize and exaggerate a lot, and that he's often talking about the Human race as he would like them to be, rather than what they are. He says that there is no money in the Federation and that Humans are not driven by profit, yet his brother is a landowner and small-time businessman. I wonder if he even has a clue about how things really are back on Earth, since he spends most of the time in space, meeting aliens and contrasting their cultures and societies to the idealized Earth society. If he talks in a way that suggests that Humans are not religious anymore, I take it in the meaning that the percentage of religious people has gone down compared to the previous centuries, and they're not a majority anymore, and that the role of religion in society is diminished - not that there aren't still many religious people. After all, we know that traditional religious holidays still exist and haven't been renamed or re-interpreted to fit an atheist mindset (Hindu Festival of Lights, Christmas), and yeah, there's also Chakotay or the native American colonists from "Journey's End".

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I know that sometimes when DS9 is mentioned to her in interviews she calls it "Deep Sleep Nine", which doesn't make much sense considering the fact that DS9 is the epic war series while her show was the one about that stuffy English guy that flies around the galaxy giving speeches.

(No, that was not a slight against TNG, I happen to enjoy many of Picard's speeches.)
I didn't know that. Now I feel really good thinking about that time when she unsuccessfully campaigned for getting a guest starring role in BSG. I remember when those interview/interviews appeared before season 4 and were discussed on Skiffy BSG forum, pretty much everyone was either appalled or laughing at her and saying "hell no, Ron is not crazy". The news that Nana Visitor would appear in season 4, OTOH, was greeted enthusiastically by posters familiar with Trek.
Star Trek as a franchise is based on the "humanity is different and evolved" ideal. I don't see that as a criticism of TNG as such. In fairness, it's a criticism of DS9, since whilst an excellent show, it was not in sync with Trek values.

Is the Roddenberry vision realistic? I don't think it is personally. But it is art. Art by definition is abstract, or a representation of a given thing. It doesn't have to be a wholly accurate representation, since it is abstract.

I think season 1 of TNG (bar the neutral zone and maybe DataLore) sucked. Season 2 was so-so, but it did kick off in quality terms from season 3 to 7.
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Old May 21 2010, 03:03 AM   #66
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
PKTrekGirl wrote: View Post
Picard is the guy you'd want to be your lawyer if you ever went to tax court or something.

The fun factor for Picard is WAAAAAAYYYY down.
I don't know, I think he's fun. He sits at his desk most of the day reading stuff on his computer while drinking tea. He acts aloof, smug and sanctimonious. He complains about young people.

He's like me, but with a Yorkshire accent.
I have absolutely no idea what to say to this. None at all.
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Old May 21 2010, 03:22 AM   #67
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

indolover wrote: View Post
Star Trek as a franchise is based on the "humanity is different and evolved" ideal. I don't see that as a criticism of TNG as such. In fairness, it's a criticism of DS9, since whilst an excellent show, it was not in sync with Trek values.

Is the Roddenberry vision realistic? I don't think it is personally. But it is art.
Well, I can see you never read MY post.

And I'm calling bullshit on your 'DS9 is not in sync with Trek values'.

TNG is not in sync with TOS's 'values'. And Roddenberry created both of them. Roddenberry and his 'values' changed horses mid-stream and got all 80's PC on us, which was precisely his downfall. The TOS universe was NOT the story of a perfectly 'evolved' crew jetting around the universe spreading the Federation Gospel via arrogant speeches pointing out the flaws of everyone but them. It was the story of a flawed hero and his crew being a group of pioneers of exploration and adventure in the great unknown.

But like I said...you didn't read my post.
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Old May 21 2010, 04:06 AM   #68
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

Admiral Shran--Keep an eye out for a PM on this topic.
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Old May 21 2010, 04:28 AM   #69
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

And besides, most of the guys they encountered in TNG whenever they did the "We're superior" stuff WERE inferior to the Feds one way or another and ended up putting the TNG crew through nastiness that merited at least some snideness on their behalf TO the jerks who caused the situation in the first place.

And hell, it's rather ironic that whenever the TNG crew DO act "human" by wanting to get away from an obviously annoying fellow or somesuch they get slammed for being "jerks" by the VERY SAME PEOPLE who wanted them to be more "human" in the first place!

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I'm starting to think the only thing they could've done is just have the crew collectively say "We're the worst people in the world and even a serial rapist is better than us, morally!", is that "human" enough for you?
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Old May 21 2010, 04:37 AM   #70
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

For the record, I don't usually see those two complaints from the same people. And I'm someone who was irritated by their high and mighty-ness in the first season, and I LIKE things like the crew being annoyed by Hutch or having to deal with negative emotions.

But anyway! Since you're here now, I have to ask, do you concede that all Niners aren't TNG haters now, since there are numbers? I mean, over 90% of nearly 70 people here (which is a small number in general, but a decent one for a single subforum) thought TNG was at least "okay" and most of them thought it was good or excellent.
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Old May 21 2010, 05:03 AM   #71
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

RyuRoots wrote: View Post
For the record, I don't usually see those two complaints from the same people. And I'm someone who was irritated by their high and mighty-ness in the first season, and I LIKE things like the crew being annoyed by Hutch or having to deal with negative emotions.
Exactly.

This is why the movies are one of the few redeeming features of the series (well, except Insurrection)--we get to really see some of that emotional growth. At least in Picard and Data...
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Old May 21 2010, 02:01 PM   #72
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

indolover wrote: View Post
Star Trek as a franchise is based on the "humanity is different and evolved" ideal. I don't see that as a criticism of TNG as such. In fairness, it's a criticism of DS9, since whilst an excellent show, it was not in sync with Trek values.
How so? How are humans in DS9 "less evolved" than those in TNG? The humans in TNG were flawed; Geordi was reserved, Picard was arrogant, Riker famously had stink-nuts, and admiral after admiral was shown to be corrupt. As far as I'm concerned, the notion that humanity is evolved is little more than propaganda that Federation diplomats, including Picard, are forced to spread around the galaxy, there's almost no evidence for it in the show itself.
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Old May 21 2010, 02:25 PM   #73
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
How so? How are humans in DS9 "less evolved" than those in TNG? The humans in TNG were flawed; Geordi was reserved, Picard was arrogant, Riker famously had stink-nuts, and admiral after admiral was shown to be corrupt. As far as I'm concerned, the notion that humanity is evolved is little more than propaganda that Federation diplomats, including Picard, are forced to spread around the galaxy, there's almost no evidence for it in the show itself.
The characters on TNG were flawed, perhaps not flawed enough, but once Michael Piller took over there is enough there to balance out the sci-fi adventure and give the show a second dimension.

There's a lot of crap in the early seasons I just feel I have to ignore. At some point Doctor Crusher expresses astonishment and a certain patronizing contempt that humans in the past actually feared death, the implication being that the characters on TNG don't anymore. I'm not sure what that even means or how one would build a sci-fi adventure show on the principal that these characters have no fear of death and are therefore indifferent to the dangers they are facing.

There's much less of this obnoxious type of declaration in the later seasons (thankfully), though it does resurface from time to time, such as in Time's Arrow.
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Old May 21 2010, 02:29 PM   #74
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PKTrekGirl wrote: View Post
I was a confirmed Niner from the moment Emissary first aired. I grew up watching reruns of TOS after school and watched all of TNG in first run on TV...but DS9 to me was something special. Different, and special. I knew it was going to be a darker show - a less 'squeaky clean Federation' show, right from the start, and I liked that.

That said, I really liked TNG a lot when it first aired. Much more than I do now. As I said, I watched every episode and really loved it at the time...but I think a few things conspired to put me off of TNG slightly, to where I now consider it 'okay...but nothing special'. And those things are:

1. TNG has aged very poorly - especially the first two seasons, but really, the whole show. And I am not talking here about just special effects and costume styles, although those are certainly at issue. I'm talking here about the 80's PC mindset that permeated the show - a mindset that was not prevalent in TOS...and was not prevalent in DS9 either. That whole "We have evolved and as the superior society, we are now out to teach the universe our ways" is just nauseating to watch now. So I have to pick the TNG episodes I watch very carefully, so that I watch ones that are devoid, or nearly devoid, of that nonsense. When I do that, I enjoy the show much more.

2. The movies - specifically, Nemesis, but to an extent, Insurrection too. Nemesis was one of the worst movies I have ever seen - bar NONE. If it hadn't been Star Trek and therefore an ending I probably needed to see, at the very least to post here at TrekBBS, I'd have walked out of the theatre, it was so terrible. I can't even believe that movie MADE it to the big screen, it was so bad. Giant plot holes that you could steer a starship through were, incredibly, completely overlooked. I mean, we are talking major issues like...say...the motivations of the central characters! WTF?!!! And because it was perhaps the worst-written movie I have ever seen, it was, frankly, an insult. Because the message I got from B&B was "Yes...those dopey ST fans will watch ANYTHING with 'Star Trek' in the name - we don't even have to TRY to make a good movie", just slap "Star Trek" on a pile of steaming shit, and we can watch the Benjamins stack up. Screw those dumb nerds! We can throw them any old bone, and laugh at them all the way to the bank!" That, to me, is what Nemesis screamed. And it didn't help that I was sick and tired of Data's ongoing drama, LONG before they killed him off, to the point I was GLAD when he finally died.

As for Insurrection, I'm mainly just mad at the slight to DS9, like it didn't even exist....and the fact that the flagship crew of the Federation was off on this silly little mission when the entire AQ was about to fall to the Dominion....a conflict which barely registered a blip on the radar of this film.

3. Marina Sirtus. Jesus, is this woman annoying! And Frakes isn't far behind. First, she makes those nasty remarks about DS9 in the press (this coming from an actress who, by all accounts was the weakest link in the TNG cast!)...and then her and Frakes, in coordination with B&B, co-opt the Enterprise finale and turn it into a TNG episode. Not that ENT was all that great of a show...but they DID deserve their own finale, fer cryin' out loud - especially given the fact that the actors on ENT were great - it was the writing that normally was the problem on that show. What B&B, Frakes and Sirtus did to that cast was abominable and completely undeserved (especially given that the fault for ENT's failure rests squarely WITH B&B - the same guys who punished the ENT cast for their own lousy mistakes!). And yes - while I do chiefly blame B&B for the ENT fiasco, Frakes & Sirtus were certainly greedy enough and arrogant enough to participate without reservation in this massive insult to the ENT cast. Sirtus is by far my LEAST favorite Trek actor - she's a terrible actress who can barely get a job outside of Trek...but who still, incredibly, has the arrogance to diss DS9 en masse...and steal the ENT cast blind. I can barely stand to look at her. Seriously.

Anyway, the bottom line for me is that TNG sat alot better with me when it was on than it does now. I love DS9 & TOS and I quite like VOY most of the time. But TNG - I really love certain episodes...but the items above have sort of ruined a lot of the show for me...so on average, I rate it as 'okay'.
Trek Girl usually sums up my feeling and thoughts pretty well.
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Old May 21 2010, 02:57 PM   #75
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Re: How do Niners feel about TNG?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post
Star Trek as a franchise is based on the "humanity is different and evolved" ideal. I don't see that as a criticism of TNG as such. In fairness, it's a criticism of DS9, since whilst an excellent show, it was not in sync with Trek values.
How so? How are humans in DS9 "less evolved" than those in TNG? The humans in TNG were flawed; Geordi was reserved, Picard was arrogant, Riker famously had stink-nuts, and admiral after admiral was shown to be corrupt. As far as I'm concerned, the notion that humanity is evolved is little more than propaganda that Federation diplomats, including Picard, are forced to spread around the galaxy, there's almost no evidence for it in the show itself.
Earth was said to be a paradise, no war, no poverty, etc. This is the whole idea of the franchise.
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