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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 17 2010, 09:42 PM   #121
Captain Robert April
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Duncan MacLeod wrote: View Post
I haven't seen the movie and don't ever intend to. But based upon what I have read about it I would like to offer another point of contention.

Would the Spock who went back in time in COTEOF to prevent McCoy from changing the past, and who insisted that Capt. Christopher had to be returned in TIY to preserve the future; be so willing to write off the destruction of Vulcan and all the inhabitants, when he knew that this was not as history should proceed?

I submit that the answer is he would not. Thus in the history that he comes from, there must be no conflict, and to his knowledge Vulcan was destroyed. If it were otherwise, then Spock, through inaction, would be condoning genocide.

I'm sorry but the Spock of TOS would not do that.
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Old May 17 2010, 09:42 PM   #122
Char Aznable
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Spock came from the Prime universe. I've never heard a valid reason to suggest otherwise. I'll take the opinions of Nimoy, the writers, the director, and my own fucking eyes over . . .well . . . someone on the internet going, "HERP DERP I DUN LIEK THIS MOVIE SO IT' WUN FIT INTO MY TEIMLINE 'CUZ I SAW SO HERP DERP!"
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Old May 17 2010, 09:43 PM   #123
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
In one episode, Spock smiles.

In another episode, he makes a completely tasteless remark to Yeoman Rand about Kirk's sexual prowess.

In TMP, he cries without any external influence controlling him to do so.


Consistent?
Two early episodes when the series was just getting started. Big crime. And in TMP he is strongly affected by his experience with Vger so he sheds a tear. Big crime.
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Old May 17 2010, 09:50 PM   #124
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Two early episodes when the series was just getting started. Big crime. And in TMP he is strongly affected by his experience with Vger so he sheds a tear. Big crime.
But that's not what you said. You said "The writers and the actor were smart enough to keep him consistent." You're inferring that he was consistent throughout the entire series, and he wasn't. His character changed from the beginning of the series to the end because of character development. His character changed throughout the TOS movies as well. His character changed yet again in "Unification," and finally changed again in Star Trek '09. The only consistent thing about Spock's character is its inconsistency

But you know what? I'm not interested in arguing with you. I'm much more interested in why you have so much hate for everything that isn't 1960's Star Trek.
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Old May 17 2010, 09:58 PM   #125
Captain Robert April
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Re: Where did Spock go?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Fans have come up with excuses for the continuity glitches in STXI just as they did decades ago with TOS, TMP, TNG and the rest.
That's what we're doing! The difference in this case is that these glitches are too big and too numerous to just chalk up to somebody misspeaking. It's clear that something a lot more has happened than a disgruntled Romulan miner fell through a wormhole and started blowing shit up. Things are just too different, even before the Narada fires a single shot.

And Spock, as we know him, has far too much experience with time travel, and its ramifications, to behave as we see him behave in this movie. Even if he was suffering from full blown Bendaii's Syndrome, he'd still be inclined to solve the problem by going back in time and preventing Nero's incursion in the first place, if that was, in fact, the true source of the timeline disruption; the only difference would be he'd need a computer to make the calculations instead of doing them in his head, like he was shown to do previously in TIY and TVH (and you want to talk memory problems?).

Occam's Razor applies here. Simplest solution is that it's not our Spock. He came from another parallel universe, where he never had those time travel adventures (and thus no experience in resolving problems like this), and either time-traveled back along his own timeline, or was shifted into yet another alternate universe.

Either way, the mainline Star Trek timeline never comes into play.

I say push the divergence point further back, to the Temporal Cold War, and blame the whole thing on Archer.
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Old May 17 2010, 10:05 PM   #126
Char Aznable
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
That's what we're doing! The difference in this case is that these glitches are too big and too numerous to just chalk up to somebody misspeaking.
No, it's pretty much the same as many of the continuity errors that exist through out Trek. Nice try picking and choosing which errors are acceptable for you though.

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Old May 17 2010, 10:07 PM   #127
Dukhat
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Occam's Razor applies here. Simplest solution is that it's not our Spock. He came from another parallel universe, where he never had those time travel adventures (and thus no experience in resolving problems like this), and either time-traveled back along his own timeline, or was shifted into yet another alternate universe.
Really? I would think that Occam's Razor would say that the simplest solution is what the people who made the movie intended (and what Leonard Nimoy himself would undoubtedly agree with): That this was the Spock from the TOS universe, not that convoluted mess you just wrote.
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Old May 17 2010, 10:14 PM   #128
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Occam's Razor applies here. Simplest solution is that it's not our Spock. He came from another parallel universe, where he never had those time travel adventures (and thus no experience in resolving problems like this), and either time-traveled back along his own timeline, or was shifted into yet another alternate universe.
Jesus cocking Christ, how is that the simplest solution?
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Old May 17 2010, 10:23 PM   #129
Captain Robert April
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Re: Where did Spock go?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
I still don't hear anyone "proving" to me that TOS is all set in the same universe. The same circumstancial evidence used against STXI works the other way too.
You asked for it...

Kirk's middle initial,
Typo/inside joke on Mitchell's part. You never heard Kirk identify himself as "James R. Kirk", did you?

Spock's uniform colour, the uniforms in general, the bridge crew and the Enterprise interior and exterior design are wrong in the "Where No Man..." universe.
Uniforms and equipment change all the time in the real world, why should Star Trek be exempt?

Shuttles clearly don't exist in "The Enemy Within" universe.
Just because they weren't referenced doesn't mean they weren't there (besides the fact that those big honking hangar doors have always been there). This can be chalked up to the atmospheric conditions and the terrain making the use of the shuttlecraft impractical.

Antimatter, in other Treks known as starship fuel, threatened to destroy the universe in "The Alternative Factor" universe.
We saw an ounce of antimatter rip away half the atmosphere of a Class M planet. Imagine what two hundred pounds would do, particularly within close proximity of a dimensional portal.

TOS is 200 years ahead of today in the "Space Seed" universe, and 900 in "The Squire of Gothos" universe.
Some things you just have to squint at as you go by, especially if they have no real impact on the story being told, like those two examples.

Lasers and Time Warp drive are on the Enterprise in "The Cage" universe.
Terminology changes even more often than technology and uniforms.

Photon Torpedoes don't exist and phasers act like torpedoes in the "Balance of Terror" universe.
Again, just because they didn't mention them doesn't mean they didn't have them. And it's cited in the Writer's Guide that phasers can be set to emit bursts and pulses.

If all these obvious contradictions and altered premises can co-exist in the same universe, then it can easily be that universe's Spock who falls though a black hole and watches Vulcan die in STXI.
The above examples don't detract from the credibility of the story. ST09's problems undermine the whole plot.
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Old May 17 2010, 10:25 PM   #130
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
TOS Purist wrote: View Post
I'm tired of people saying that ST09 failed for this or that reason, and then someone else barges in and yells "IT DIDN'T FAIL IT MADE A LOT OF MONEY LOL" when nobody was talking about box office returns.
But box office returns are a consideration (especially after the stinker that was Nemesis), because it proves that a lot of people still love Star Trek despite the downhill slope it had taken in recent years, if 250 million dollars worth of ticket holders was any indication.
Box office returns are in no wise an indicator of integral quality. Britney Spears concerts sell out, while high opera goes starving. The term "caviar to the general" was coined for a reason (though, of course, the general are in fact ignorant of it).
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Old May 17 2010, 10:27 PM   #131
Captain Robert April
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Char Aznable wrote: View Post
Spock came from the Prime universe. I've never heard a valid reason to suggest otherwise.
Because you refuse to listen.
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Old May 17 2010, 10:28 PM   #132
Captain Robert April
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Occam's Razor applies here. Simplest solution is that it's not our Spock. He came from another parallel universe, where he never had those time travel adventures (and thus no experience in resolving problems like this), and either time-traveled back along his own timeline, or was shifted into yet another alternate universe.
Jesus cocking Christ, how is that the simplest solution?
Because to try and fit this self-contradicting pile of crap into TOS would make the IRS tax code look like "Dick and Jane."
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Old May 17 2010, 10:29 PM   #133
Dukhat
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Re: Where did Spock go?

A beaker full of death wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
TOS Purist wrote: View Post
I'm tired of people saying that ST09 failed for this or that reason, and then someone else barges in and yells "IT DIDN'T FAIL IT MADE A LOT OF MONEY LOL" when nobody was talking about box office returns.
But box office returns are a consideration (especially after the stinker that was Nemesis), because it proves that a lot of people still love Star Trek despite the downhill slope it had taken in recent years, if 250 million dollars worth of ticket holders was any indication.
Box office returns are in no wise an indicator of integral quality. Britney Spears concerts sell out, while high opera goes starving. The term "caviar to the general" was coined for a reason (though, of course, the general are in fact ignorant of it).
You're comparing Britney Spears to opera. Other than that they're both a form of music, they're two totally different things that have nothing to do with each other. I'm comparing Star Trek '09 with the other Star Trek movies and TV shows that had come before it in the last ten-plus years.
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Old May 17 2010, 10:31 PM   #134
Dukhat
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Shazam! wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Occam's Razor applies here. Simplest solution is that it's not our Spock. He came from another parallel universe, where he never had those time travel adventures (and thus no experience in resolving problems like this), and either time-traveled back along his own timeline, or was shifted into yet another alternate universe.
Jesus cocking Christ, how is that the simplest solution?
Because to try and fit this self-contradicting pile of crap into TOS would make the IRS tax code look like "Dick and Jane."
And yet there are many people out there that can do this just fine. Just because you can't (or more likely, refuse to), doesn't mean you speak for anyone else other than yourself.

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Char Aznable wrote: View Post
Spock came from the Prime universe. I've never heard a valid reason to suggest otherwise.
Because you refuse to listen.
And this is different from yourself, how?
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Last edited by Boo-khat; May 17 2010 at 10:56 PM.
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Old May 17 2010, 10:55 PM   #135
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Re: Where did Spock go?

All Abrams and his writers had to do was a little fucking homework, but they chose not to. They pick-and-chose some familiar references and then dumped it in a mixer with steroids and when it was done they thought, "Hey, yeah! That looks good." Then they try to sell it as a reboot of the franchise AND yet still connected to the original.

Uh, no...fucking...way. A director du jour and a couple of hack writers do not a good Star Trek make. They messed it up huge and so too damned bad. It makes Enterfake look like genius.

Abramsverse is nothing like TOS even before Nero shows up. That's fine for a reboot. But then we get a Spock that doesn't act like the Spock we know. This Spock doesn't remember the same things as the original TOS Spock. This nuSpock openly speaks of things about the future or a future that the original Spock never would have done. nuSpock doesn't even consider how he might go about setting things right.

Abrams can claim it's original Spock all he wants, and so can Nimoy, till the cows come home or the Earth's sun goes nova. But old nuSpock doesn't act like original Spock did and would. Ergo: it ain't original Spock. nuSpock is from somewhere else.

They've tried to retcon TOS since TNG and through DS9, the TNG films, VOY and most particularly ENT. ST09 is the latest salvo.
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