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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 16 2010, 11:21 PM   #76
Joker
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Duncan MacLeod wrote: View Post
I haven't seen the movie and don't ever intend to. But based upon what I have read about it I would like to offer another point of contention.

Would the Spock who went back in time in COTEOF to prevent McCoy from changing the past, and who insisted that Capt. Christopher had to be returned in TIY to preserve the future; be so willing to write off the destruction of Vulcan and all the inhabitants, when he knew that this was not as history should proceed?

I submit that the answer is he would not. Thus in the history that he comes from, there must be no conflict, and to his knowledge Vulcan was destroyed. If it were otherwise, then Spock, through inaction, would be condoning genocide.

I'm sorry but the Spock of TOS would not do that.
This is still nonsense. Does every story told in TOS square logically with every other story? No. Yet we forgive and ignore it.

But now suddenly it's a problem? No. It wasn't a problem then, and it isn't a problem now.

Let it go. There are some things that benefit from this level of thought and scrutiny. This ain't one of them. These characters are not real people. Do not expect the level of consistency from them that you would from a real person.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:21 PM   #77
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Re: Where did Spock go?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Fans have come up with excuses for the continuity glitches in STXI just as they did decades ago with TOS, TMP, TNG and the rest.

Warped9, you say it's the wrong Spock because he mistook the 25 year old Kirk for the 30 year old one. Five years? That is a joke. I'm suprised you haven't used Chris Pine's eye colour as "proof" of your conclusions yet, or that Captain Pike's not a bigot in STXI.

The date the Enterprise was launched and the size of the ship? Starfleet rethought their shipbuilding after the attack on the Kelvin. Have the designs changed too much? No more than TMP did (or the large Excelsior design a little later), and those changes could have been the result of the Doomsday Machine encounter or another TOS event.

Chekov's age? He could have been BSing when he said it in TOS.

Delta Vega? I answered that earlier.

You're probably gonna dismiss my, and everyone else's answers (as you repeatedly have) but they're just as valid as the excuses fans made for the stupid errors in TOS.
The old nuSpock can clearly see that Pine/Kirk is much younger than he would be when commanding the Enterprise. And so for him to exclaim surprise that Pine/Kirk isn't already in command speaks volumes that this can't be the TOS Spock who well knows what age Kirk would be when he takes command.

The simple thing is Abrams and his writers ignored what TOS had clearly established. That's fine as a clean reboot, but by including an older time traveling Spock if they really wanted to connect back to TOS then they should have done their homework. Clearly they didn't and now it's onscreen and they're stuck with it.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:23 PM   #78
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Temis The Vorta I bow down to your explanation excellent post in my opinion.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:29 PM   #79
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Clearly they didn't and now it's onscreen and they're stuck with it.
They're not "stuck" with anything. The movie worked fine. The next movie won't suffer in any way, shape or form for it. Both it and the people who make it will be unaffected, unaware, and unconcerned. From what can be seen here, it would appear if anyone is "stuck" with something, it is you.

Your need to rationalise and shape a completely malleable work of mass-media fiction that was/is designed to satisfy a large audience into what you want and expect is bizarre.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:30 PM   #80
Duncan MacLeod
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Shazam! wrote: View Post
It's not his universe at that point, so it's not up to him.
This seems to be a moot point to me.

Spock has acted to preserve worlds with which he had far less connection than an alternate universe Vulcan.

And in any case it would still be genocide.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:32 PM   #81
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
What the hell do you expect Nimoy to remember continuity wise after more than forty years? He's an actor, not a writer or continuity consultant. He just gets paid to read the lines.
Because,
A: He's not just an actor paid to say lines. He is an actor who studies the material, puts himself in the character as written and even contributes based on his vast knowledge of his character. He becomes that character and gives to us his peformance, because we want him to. Is he paid? yes... we all are that have a job. And paid well because, as has been debated, not just anyone can play these roles. He is an asset to Star Trek, more than most. And paid for a service, no different than anyone else. And he has earned his paycheck, goddamn it. The minute you start downgrading what the actors of this series, or any series, contribute to these shows is the minute you should just stop watching these shows. It is the actors that give us everything, they are the delivery system. This is commercial entertainment and asks nothing more of you, certainly less than you ask of it. Leonard Nimoy is a smart man, he's quite conscience of his Trek material and respects his character. He respects the franchise, and his role in it, far more than you ever will... and that's just too bad for you.

B: Nerd bots constantly ask this man all these stupid little questions that you ask here. And he does his best to answer them, so what makes you think he's forgotten much of anything from 40 years of Star Trek when he's reminded every day?

Star Trek isn't about explaining every little inconsequential detail to you while it pats you on the head, like you're a dumb little baby... and it never will be. I assume you're smarter than that, so grow up. Because it says to me that you've lost the ability to find enjoyment in a product created to do exactly that, that's terrible, and I'm sorry. But you ask too much of the concept, honestly.


Evidence is offered up to illustrate the point, but all we get from the other side is, "No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't..."

You ask why it bothers me? I can ask the same, why does what I conclude bother you? If you liked the film then what do you care one way or another?

Then why do you bother to post? You're going to find that people differ with your opinion and may never share your concerns, if that's an issue with you, perhaps keep these concerns to yourself. Healthy debate and playful spectulation is one thing, but no one here answers to you. It's no ones responsibility to find the answers you seek, to agree with your reasoning, to commiserate, or to blindly follow along on your quest to waste a shit load of time asking.

Warped9 wrote: View Post
When I'm absolutely convinced of something there are no limits to my stubbornness.
Then I guess yer gonna have to suck your own dick, cuz no one here's gonna suck it for ya.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:33 PM   #82
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Re: Where did Spock go?

elton wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
Clearly they didn't and now it's onscreen and they're stuck with it.
They're not "stuck" with anything. The movie worked fine. The next movie won't suffer in any way, shape or form for it. Both it and the people who make it will be unaffected, unaware, and unconcerned. From what can be seen here, it would appear if anyone is "stuck" with something, it is you.
May work fine for you, but it's total nonsense to me. And that's why I dismiss it as nothing connected to TOS whatsoever.

FlapJoy wrote: View Post
Then I guess yer gonna have to suck your own dick, cuz no one here's gonna suck it for ya.
Well we can see where your head is at.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:34 PM   #83
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Duncan MacLeod wrote: View Post
Spock has acted to preserve worlds with which he had far less connection than an alternate universe Vulcan.
Worlds in his universe.

Besides, who's to say that he didn't go off looking for a way to undo it all and just didn't tell anyone?
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Old May 16 2010, 11:37 PM   #84
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Evidence is offered up to illustrate the point, but all we get from the other side is, "No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't..."

Oh, c'mon... the "evidence" is nonsense that has been repeatedly refuted.

You're just having a laugh, aren't you? Winding up the gushers. I can admit that you had be going for awhile.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:37 PM   #85
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Duncan MacLeod wrote: View Post
Shazam! wrote: View Post
It's not his universe at that point, so it's not up to him.
This seems to be a moot point to me.

Spock has acted to preserve worlds with which he had far less connection than an alternate universe Vulcan.

And in any case it would still be genocide.
So, after the movie ends, he'll do his best to time travel and save Vulcan. (Does he know how to time travel in this universe? Star Trek folks have learned how to time travel before and then acted like they forgot.)

Or maybe he decides he can do more good alerting Starfleet to the Doomsday Machine which even at that very moment, is munching up planets and probably killing a lot more people than died on Vulcan, and helping them to extrapolate its path based on where he remembers it when the Enterprise encountered it, so that they can destroy it before it can gobble up more worlds. Given the similarity of this universe to Spock's original one, and the lifetime of knowledge he has, there are any number of ways he could save billions of lives, and maybe futzing around with time travel isn't the best use of his time.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:38 PM   #86
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Duncan MacLeod wrote: View Post
I haven't seen the movie and don't ever intend to. But based upon what I have read about it I would like to offer another point of contention.

Would the Spock who went back in time in COTEOF to prevent McCoy from changing the past, and who insisted that Capt. Christopher had to be returned in TIY to preserve the future; be so willing to write off the destruction of Vulcan and all the inhabitants, when he knew that this was not as history should proceed?

I submit that the answer is he would not. Thus in the history that he comes from, there must be no conflict, and to his knowledge Vulcan was destroyed. If it were otherwise, then Spock, through inaction, would be condoning genocide.

I'm sorry but the Spock of TOS would not do that.
You're right, the TOS Spock wouldn't do that because he was a younger man who had not yet had the years of experience of his older self. People change as they get older. Their perceptions change. New truths present themselves. But Spock Prime, having lived a long life and having had time to contemplate that life, has come to different conclusions than the person he once was.

Which of us is ever the same person we were 10 years ago? Imagine how much more different a person could be after 100 or so years of life. He or she wouldn't see eye-to-eye with their younger selves. Then again, which of us do?

Nevertheless, Spock Prime was played by Nimoy as being the same person as the version he played in TOS-TNG, but someone who has grown comfortable with himself. His performance is informed by that choice and it shows on screen.

Also, by not "putting things right that once went wrong", the movie may say something more than the episodes where the timeline was "restored."

Yes, Vulcan is gone. But things happen and we must live with them. There is no going back and undoing the tragedies of our lives, our era. We must move forward and survive them. In doing so, we strive for a better tomorrow.

Hmm...maybe there was a bit of optimistic Roddenberry-ism in the movie after all.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:38 PM   #87
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
May work fine for you, but it's total nonsense to me.
What is nonsense here is your inability to deal with a fucking movie that doesn't go in the exact direction that you want it to, and the need to contrive your own "real" version to satisfy yourself.

Stuff like this is why Trek fans are ridiculed. Normal person sees shit movie... normal person forgets it and gets on with life. Trekkie sees new Trek movie and doesn't like it... Trekkie denies its existence in the fake world and justifies it with fake reasons to preserve the integrity of the fake world and the fake people therein.

Galaxy Quest suddenly makes sense.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:44 PM   #88
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Re: Where did Spock go?

elton wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
May work fine for you, but it's total nonsense to me.
What is nonsense here is your inability to deal with a fucking movie that doesn't go in the exact direction that you want it to, and the need to contrive your own "real" version to satisfy yourself.
I don't have to contrive anything. Abrams and his writers did it all simply by how they chose to write the film.

You're no different than someone who maintains he sees four lights when anyone with a clear mind sees only three are there.
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Old May 16 2010, 11:46 PM   #89
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Abrams and his writers had a film to write. They wrote a film.

What's your excuse?
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Old May 16 2010, 11:51 PM   #90
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9, people really don't look that different after five years. You weren't expecting Chris Pine to suddenly metamorphize into William Shatner, circa 1965, on his 30th birthday, were you?

Up next: "It's an alternate universe because Kirk didn't use weird, halting sentences."
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