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Old May 14 2010, 11:58 PM   #106
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I'd even suggest further that on the TOS tech tree that the original power distribution system started without any special crystals in the mix and that at some point Lithium was used and then in middle of S1 switched to Dilithium. We've seen that in emergency conditions that the Lithium/Dilithium circuit can be bypassed if the bypass circuits weren't always being burned out
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Old May 15 2010, 01:49 AM   #107
Captain Robert April
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Are there any references in ENT to dilithium crystals?
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Old May 15 2010, 03:27 AM   #108
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Are there any references in ENT to dilithium crystals?
Actually there are. Very TNG-like references as crystals and as the dilithium matrix, where the matter and antimatter react.
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Old May 15 2010, 04:21 AM   #109
Captain Robert April
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

So much for Tyler's line in "The Cage" referring to the discovery of dilithium. Or lithium, for that matter.
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Old May 15 2010, 04:37 AM   #110
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
So much for Tyler's line in "The Cage" referring to the discovery of dilithium. Or lithium, for that matter.
I'll have to check that sometime as I didn't find a reference to lithium/dilithium in "The Cage".

Nevertheless, the very functioning of the warp engines is totally different between TOS and TNG+. If TOS were the same as TNG with the dilithium mediating the M/AM reaction, Scotty would've blown the ship to bits when he ejected the dilithium crystal assembly when the engines were at full power in "The Paradise Syndrome"
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Old May 15 2010, 10:50 AM   #111
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
So much for Tyler's line in "The Cage" referring to the discovery of dilithium. Or lithium, for that matter.
I'll have to check that sometime as I didn't find a reference to lithium/dilithium in "The Cage".
There isn't one. It has been speculated however that the advances in (di)lithium technology is what's being referred to here:

TYLER: And you won't believe how fast you can get back. Well the time barrier's been broken. Our new ships can-
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Nevertheless, the very functioning of the warp engines is totally different between TOS and TNG+. If TOS were the same as TNG with the dilithium mediating the M/AM reaction, Scotty would've blown the ship to bits when he ejected the dilithium crystal assembly when the engines were at full power in "The Paradise Syndrome"
I suppose there could be some auto power-down safety feature to prevent such (amusing) incidents? In fact this appears to be what happens in Paradise Syndrome; Scotty raises the crystal from the pedestal just before they try the Deflectors on the asteroid, and power drops all over the ship.
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Old May 15 2010, 01:52 PM   #112
Captain Robert April
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I don't remember Scotty futzing with the crystals in "The Paradise Syndrome"...
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Old May 15 2010, 03:07 PM   #113
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
I don't remember Scotty futzing with the crystals in "The Paradise Syndrome"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhCfFR0w0ho

Watch at 16:32.

@Mytran - I don't know about an auto-power down feature as the ship's engines are at full power and Scotty non-chalantly walks over and ejects the dilithium crystal assembly to look at it and tell Spock it is failing.

If the reactor did an auto-shutdown, then based on the last known info about starting back up the engine it'd take minutes to do the "imploding engine restart" from "The Naked Time".

But I don't think the reactor ever shutdown as the dialogue and fx implied the reactor was running but Scotty's actions just took power away from equipment downstream.

Last edited by blssdwlf; May 15 2010 at 03:39 PM.
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Old May 15 2010, 04:07 PM   #114
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean that the entire reactor shut down, just that there may have been some way to isolate the dilithium circuit for safe inspection.

As to how important the DCC is, in Elann of Troyius the lack of a functioning crystal is disasterous:

SCOTT: I've got bad news, Captain. The entire dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused. No chance of repair. It's completely unusable.
KIRK: No chance of restoring warp drive?
SCOTT [OC]: Not without dilithium crystals. We can't even generate enough power to fire our weapons.
Of course other sabotage had also gone on, so it may well be that under ideal conditions routine inspection (and replacement) of the crystal while the enfines are running is no big deal.
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Old May 15 2010, 08:33 PM   #115
Captain Robert April
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

The difference between TNG's setup and TOS' is that the dilithium crystal matrix is separate from the M/ARC during TOS, while during TNG, the dilithium crystals are held right there in the intermix chamber itself.

Remember, the whole purpose of the crystals is to amplify the energy from the antimatter reaction so that a decent warp field can be generated. So, as long as the warp drive isn't engaged, then there's no problem popping the crystals out to take a look at them. If Geordi tried that on the Enterprise-D, yeah, you'd have a very big problem, but on the original Enterprise, the intermix chamber is a couple of decks down. Still wouldn't be a smart move on Scotty's part to pull those crystals out while the ship was at warp, but not necessarily the instant death for all aboard that's being put forward.
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Old May 15 2010, 09:49 PM   #116
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Right (and better written than my short comparison) - sorry if I wasn't clear earlier

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
The difference between TNG's setup and TOS' is that the dilithium crystal matrix is separate from the M/ARC during TOS, while during TNG, the dilithium crystals are held right there in the intermix chamber itself.

Remember, the whole purpose of the crystals is to amplify the energy from the antimatter reaction so that a decent warp field can be generated. So, as long as the warp drive isn't engaged, then there's no problem popping the crystals out to take a look at them. If Geordi tried that on the Enterprise-D, yeah, you'd have a very big problem, but on the original Enterprise, the intermix chamber is a couple of decks down. Still wouldn't be a smart move on Scotty's part to pull those crystals out while the ship was at warp, but not necessarily the instant death for all aboard that's being put forward.
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Old May 18 2010, 02:58 AM   #117
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Are there any references in ENT to dilithium crystals?
Actually there are. Very TNG-like references as crystals and as the dilithium matrix, where the matter and antimatter react.
Yay another reason for me to kick ENT to the curb
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Old May 18 2010, 02:22 PM   #118
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

There were some interesting bits from Enterprise. My way of making sense of it was to simply put it in a different universe/timeline
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Old May 18 2010, 09:11 PM   #119
Captain Rob
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
I don't remember Scotty futzing with the crystals in "The Paradise Syndrome"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhCfFR0w0ho

Watch at 16:32.

@Mytran - I don't know about an auto-power down feature as the ship's engines are at full power and Scotty non-chalantly walks over and ejects the dilithium crystal assembly to look at it and tell Spock it is failing.

If the reactor did an auto-shutdown, then based on the last known info about starting back up the engine it'd take minutes to do the "imploding engine restart" from "The Naked Time".

But I don't think the reactor ever shutdown as the dialogue and fx implied the reactor was running but Scotty's actions just took power away from equipment downstream.
Well, Scotty refers to dilithium circuits, as in plural. But when he opens that one unit, the bridge lights go out. Even though it appears that the crystal still has power running through it, since it 's glowing.
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Old May 19 2010, 12:50 AM   #120
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Captain Rob wrote: View Post
Well, Scotty refers to dilithium circuits, as in plural. But when he opens that one unit, the bridge lights go out. Even though it appears that the crystal still has power running through it, since it 's glowing.
It was a clarification to an early post. Basically, if the reactor was built like the ones in TNG then ejecting a dilithium crystal while at full power isn't a good idea.

Fortunately for Scotty, the TOS power setup had the dilithium (and lithium and before that, who knows?) as part of the power distribution and not mediating the matter/antimatter reaction
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