Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan in 70mm

[Epsilon-9]

trevanian wrote:

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I've seen some 35 blowups that weren't objectionable, but they were lowgrain bright pics to start with (SILVERADO comes to mind.) TWOK was shot on fairly fast somewhat grainy stock, so these all compound the blowup issue.

To be fair, I have only seen a bad 35mm print of TWOK in recent years ... I haven't seen a fresh one since 1982, and at that time I saw it a couple times in 35 and a couple in 70, and the only dif I recall was that you could hear the 'khan!' echo more times in the 70 version.

It’s twice over the stage channels and once fading off into the monaural surround.

[Captain Rob]

I feel like Homer Simpson reading this thread: "OHHHH, 70 milimeterrrrrr!" (drools) I saw TWOK I'm sure in 70 mm opening week at the UA Prestonwood Creek 5 in Dallas, Texas. I still remember it to this day. And a year later I started my theatre career there on opening weekend of ROTJ. Everything that was available in 70 mm we got. And those prints were huge; one reel per film case and 7 or 8 cases per print. We ran "Top Gun" on two screens; one in 70 mm split-surround and the other 35 mm. Surround channels weren't split left and right in those days. I loved showing customers the difference between them picture and sound wise. That was the busiest location in the country for UA in those days. And we were the first commercial installation for Lucasfilm's THX Sound. The sound system upgrade was installed and tuned by the Lucasfilm guys, not UA's. 70 mm was fun but you had to tear the print down and rebuild it about every two weeks because the splices would stretch.

[Epsilon-9]

It’s a small world/universe, Captain Rob.

I had a go at projection about the same year. 1989 for the same cinema chain local in my area Tower Park, Poole UCI 10screen, Paramount/Universal, in its day, now its cinemas are called, Empire cinemas.

I left UCI around 1990.
I joined Warner Bros briefly around 1998.

Most of the cinemas I worked at sadly only had 35mm playback. I recall Cinemeccanica Vic V at UCI, wow had forgotten the name of the projector at Warner Village 12 screen, Bristol?

The principles aren’t much different between the two projectors in lacing-up.

UCI had basic system even though most other cinemas around where running a far elaborate set-up of duel 35/70 projection.

The cinema processors were all Dolby CP65 same audio amps Sound Associates EV loudspeakers THX approved.

Cake palters were all the same (in fact all the smaller had the same running equipment).

Screens 5/6 where the same in dsgein and are located in the centre of the building as you enter the foyer the screens are to the left and right and span outwards from left/right.

Smaller screens 1 and 2 booths where joined together and same with 3 and 4 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10.

Booth 5 and 6 had long narrow corridor leading to the next booth and all where capable of (interlocking).

It was fun but lack of 70mm was huge thumbs down LOL.

Still the optical A and SR prints sound good as the cinema was installed for type SR playback.

Warner was slightly different. The whole booth was all on one floor level, so it makes the job easier, thou running around could cause and accident!

The screens as far as, I can recall where two main large ones located in the middle of the complex, with medium size to smaller and ultra smaller LOL.

The tiny screens thou still many times larger than home cinema in basement LOL had vertical masking and that was something I hadn’t seen before and no, I don’t like. I prefer the horizontal masking it just looks cool when it opens (((outwards))).

The sound system was Dolby CP500 no I don’t like the look of them but as long as they do the job who cares? I think the amps were all QSC and KCS loudspeakers that kinder look like JBL 4675/A even the subs themselves looked like JBL4645 with three air-ports.

The larger screens had 4 subs behind the screen and the mid size I think it was 2 subs same for the small and the tiny size screens 1 sub.

Auditoriums looked smart and comfortable.

When the cinema opened and only a few screens where showing films as some still needed some small work on them. I was running “Titanic” with co-worker and the flipping cake plate motor broken down! We had to take turns rotating the take-off platter for 3 hours!

Our hands was black due to aluminium, we had already cleaned the platters days before to wipe off any traces of it and still our hands where black LOL.

Sadly due to looking for place to live in Bristol and with money running thin I had quit, I was staying at hotel paid by Warner, but had 2 weeks to find a reasonable place to rent, Bristol also has few major universities and it was peek time summer for students and all the cheap accommodation around had gone.

I just couldn’t think of handing over nearly £80.00 per week out of nearly £180 wage after taxes. sigh. So I headed back home, yeah I was really pissed off about that. I was thinking of buying tent and pitching it outside the Warner behind the building, but it would look a bit odd if I was living in tent outside a respectful company like Warner.

Also I have read some history background regarding the cinema in Texas as one two first THX screens I believe, the other was in another state I think and soon spread like wildfire and international over the years.

Are you still with the same company or have they changed the name or have you left the company?

Today its all digital sigh. It’s the lost art in lacing-up a projector, now a push button job. sigh kinder takes the fun out of it.

[Epsilon-9]

Captain Rob wrote:

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I feel like Homer Simpson reading this thread: "OHHHH, 70 milimeterrrrrr!" (drools) I saw TWOK I'm sure in 70 mm opening week at the UA Prestonwood Creek 5 in Dallas, Texas. I still remember it to this day. And a year later I started my theatre career there on opening weekend of ROTJ. Everything that was available in 70 mm we got. And those prints were huge; one reel per film case and 7 or 8 cases per print. We ran "Top Gun" on two screens; one in 70 mm split-surround and the other 35 mm. Surround channels weren't split left and right in those days. I loved showing customers the difference between them picture and sound wise. That was the busiest location in the country for UA in those days. And we were the first commercial installation for Lucasfilm's THX Sound. The sound system upgrade was installed and tuned by the Lucasfilm guys, not UA's. 70 mm was fun but you had to tear the print down and rebuild it about every two weeks because the splices would stretch.

That’s interesting fact didn’t know that? Then again I’ve had the pleasure of handling 70mm
35mm as far as I recall run for more than 2 weeks same print maybe 4 to 6 weeks it would be moved from one booth to another.

I guess its the speed that’s pulling it though the projector and the weight of the print itself which is wider and taller by small bit. Also the magnetic tracks can flake and ware away YIKES there goes the sound!

Yes it happened on Star Trek IV at the Empire when the Klingon bird of prey was heading towards the (Golden Gate Bridge) it was where the ship shuddered and vibrated and the lights went off! Then the sound went on all six magnetic tracks! It lasted just up until the ship crashed into the water/bay.

So it was about 15s 19s loss of sound!

Interesting because that was the first time I’ve heard that fault. Also the prints are costly at £16,000 grand, over 35mm at £1,500grand.

I’ve also seen Batman 1989 at the local ABC Bournemouth, during the late 1990’s and the centre channel HF had loss of dialogue intelligibility it was all low end muffled sound when Vicky Vale goes to the bat-cave where she finds Bruce living another life as the Batman! LOL

The sound restored to the centre HF just when Batman opens the vault with his Bat-suit. LOL
“I’m Batman.” LOL

Yeah its an odd thing with 70mm this is where 35mm Dolby SR-D makes things cheaper for all cinemas to playback Dolby six-track channel, only sad part is it can’t do five-screen fronts, except SDDS/8channel and how strange only few well more than few handful have ever been produced with 8channels kinder like 70mm Dolby format 43 with split-surrounds, where most was regular 70mm format 42, I’m not sure I think Dolby format 41 wide five screen stopped at some early point in the late 79’s or 80’s, can you confirm?

[Jeyl]

Did the picture look as blue as the BluRay quality did?

[Epsilon-9]

Jeyl wrote:

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Did the picture look as blue as the BluRay quality did?

Well the framing is bit on the piss for this on DVD/Bluray I mean can't they get that spot on! I'd sooner they just frame the image as it is on the film print.

Cropping off the top or sides or bottom gives bluray a bad name as a so called cinema perfect format.

[Captain Rob]

Epsilon -9: I bet your hands weren't black from the platter. Titanic was the first major release that the prints were done using polyester. The prints shed like crazy. There were problems widely reported all over the US and Canada. We had to do our weekly cleaning on the projectors after every show, it was so bad. We ran one of our prints for five months and I was surprised that there was anything left of it. When we got our 70 mm print of Titanic, everyone just looked at it because no one knew how to thread 70 but me. (lacing-up?) So I had to teach everyone.
I started with UA in 1983 and went to General Cinema in 1987. And left when they started to collapse in 1992. When I was with GCC I had a log running argument with our City Manager (Assistant DM), who was also the GM of the GCC Northpark I and II in Dallas. She was always claiming that her theatre had the first commercial THX Sound installation. I asked her when it was installed and she said May of 1983. My theatre was done by Lucasfilm in March of 1983. The GCC Northpark was their premier location in Texas. Their small auditorium was 750 seats and their large auditorium was over 1250. She said that they could never get an exact seat count. The large auditorium was like a drive-in with a roof. The floorplan was square so if you sat on one side, the other side's surround speakers were so far away you'd hear an echo.
I hated Cinemeccanica projectors. General Cinema used them for their newer locations built in the 80's. When I left in 92' I went to work for a dollar cinema company that bought GCC's new 8-screen in Ft. Worth, about 40 miles from Dallas. I managed that location for about a year and 6 of the 8 Cinemeccanica Projectors had their plastic gear assemlies blow up. The dollar cinema people didn't know how to work on them. I didn't either so I called in the service company that GCC used. They had actually done the full booth installation there in 88'. I later worked again for UA from 94' to 2006 after the merger with Regal. They shut my location down even though it was profitable. I'm out of the industry now.
As for ST IV. I got to see it early when a working print came to town for the local Paramount office, which UA did screenings for. It was complete except for the effects. I got to see the Bird of Prey fly around the sun without the floaty heads. You could still see the stand under the model and some of the effects guys were standing in the background waving.

[Epsilon-9]

captain rob

No it was the, palter our hands where on the edge of the cake platter. I would remember because my arms were aching afterwards as well as my hands 3 hours. LOL

Makes you wonder what happens in booth these days to project a film.

Interesting about the film print shedding, bit kinder like my skin condition. LOL

I think I’ve heard of someone mentioning dollar cinema that is where you pay $1.dollar. Why that’s like 50pence over here. LOL Wow that’s cheaper than child price back around 1974 which was 79pence.

Matinee Saturday films at different cinema over at Boscombe was 15pence? For that you get Godzilla!

I’d need training on 70mm because it’s a bit tricky I imagine and delicate.

I’ve seen it in the booth running though a Phillps DP70 Star Trek VI when I was invited in the booth on Friday, Febuary14th 1992, bummer, Walentines Day LOL

The chief showed me nice 35mm Dolby SR print of Star Trek VI that was used for back-up in case the 70mm got damaged. The print was covered up with bed sheet which was normal for most UCI and other cinemas to keep the prints clean.

Saw Star Trek VI three times in THX wow! It was the last 70mm Dolby THX presentation I saw at the Empire, from that day on, most where 35mm Dolby SR or SR-D or dts. Today it’s Dolby Cinema Digital, which looks and sounds great.

Echo is the worst that can happen it degrades dialogue from the first sound of voice, or spoken word. The decay time needs to be fast to prevent it from arriving milliseconds after its left the speaker! Otherwise its an overlapping of unintelligible voices.

Empire has a bit of echo its not as bad in the middle. At the front its like pinging off the walls and returning and a film like Transformers with a words coming at a pace of 100 per 20 seconds makes you say WTF! Sound effects and music is not as noticeable.

I prefer a cinema that has fast decay time, then again I’ve got so accustomed to it over the years, it doesn’t bother, me that much.

How many surrounds where in the cinema at the time, can you remember?

Was there any wall treatment?

Wow a work print to see that its coming along. That must be strange seeing the folks at, ILM, waving at the camera. LOL

Well does it matter. Maybe she meant that contract was signed, months before the install?

I think though Homan’s research and trail and error in getting it to perform is great improvement.

Its no secret about the THX baffle wall, I guess if a cinema wants to build one they don’t need to go to THX can’t be that hard to build. Plaster board! Lots of it! The screen absorbent prevents HF zigzagging of the perforated screen, making for bright harsh sound.

Projecting the sound outwards reinforcing the lows, so that’s mostly part of the tick to it.

[Captain Rob]

Makes you wonder what happens in booth these days to project a film.

It was really sad to see the GCC Northpark get torn down. It had been built in the late 60's and was toen down to make way for the shopping center's expansion. AMC theatres built a huge state-of-the-art theatre on top of the new mall segment. It opened in 2006 and is beautiful. It's now AMC's premier location in Dallas. By 2008 though I started noticing their presentation slipping. Since I have to pay for movies now I usually stick to the best places. I started noticing that their prints were dirty and that the image wasn't stable, with it wandering around the screen a little.
As for THX, I knew when the installation was done because the Lucasfilm engineers put stickers over the adjustment knobs on all of the amps and the equalizer panel. The stickers had initials and dates on them and were put there to keep people from messing with the settings. Our main auditorium had 550 seats and had a custom speaker setup. Everything was JBL and we had at least 10 surrounds in hung cabinets with dual 16 inch woofers and a single horn in each cabinet. I've never seen a setup with surrounds that big. The subs were in three cabinets under the screen each with dual 18 - 20 inch woofers. When we ran "Top Gun" in 70 mm we ran the volume on full on opening night and the subs could rattle your teeth out. The subs were later replaced with a huge Bose accoustical wave cannon at least 16 feet long, which made the previous subs sound pathetic. All of our walls had that icky burlap covering popular in the 80's but the THX auditoriums had alot of sound proofing under the burlap. We also had sound baffles over the AC vents. One of them almost fell on an employee while we were cleaning up after a show.
Our smaller auditorium (500 seat) was converted the following year to a standard THX setup with much smaller surrounds. At least it also had a 35/70 projector.
That was a great theatre to start at. In 86' it was UA's busiest location. It was like being on the front line of the movie business. We were always doing sneak previews, press screenings, and film company events. UA later sold that location and it's now known as the Studio Movie Grille-Addison, even though it's actually in Dallas. It's been the busiest dinner theatre location in the country.
UA was really big with THX sound. I think that they had more THX screens than anyone. After Regal took over in 2003 they did away with the THX certification because it costs money to use the THX logo and to recertify the auditoriums. My last location with UA was the Northstar 8 in Garland outside of Dallas. We had two THX auditoriums that sounded even better when SDDS came out. I was there for 12 years. It's now a sportsbar that's closed most of the time.

[Epsilon-9]

Captain Rob wrote:

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It was really sad to see the GCC Northpark get torn down. It had been built in the late 60's and was toen down to make way for the shopping center's expansion. AMC theatres built a huge state-of-the-art theatre on top of the new mall segment.

It opened in 2006 and is beautiful. It's now AMC's premier location in Dallas. By 2008 though I started noticing their presentation slipping. Since I have to pay for movies now I usually stick to the best places. I started noticing that their prints were dirty and that the image wasn't stable, with it wandering around the screen a little.

I guess there are those who don't care much about presentation today.

Captain Rob wrote:

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As for THX, I knew when the installation was done because the Lucasfilm engineers put stickers over the adjustment knobs on all of the amps and the equalizer panel. The stickers had initials and dates on them and were put there to keep people from messing with the settings. Our main auditorium had 550 seats and had a custom speaker setup. Everything was JBL and we had at least 10 surrounds in hung cabinets with dual 16 inch woofers and a single horn in each cabinet. I've never seen a setup with surrounds that big.

Hmm, the surrounds wouldn't be JBL 2202 low frequency and JBL 2344 high frequency horn with JBL 2421 high frequency drivers?

I have JBL booklet that was published for "Cinedome 7-plex Fremont California" (1981) its a custom made JBL surround speaker. Interesting design.

Its also suspended by chains on the sidewalls rear wall.

Captain Rob wrote:

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The subs were in three cabinets under the screen each with dual 18 - 20 inch woofers. When we ran "Top Gun" in 70 mm we ran the volume on full on opening night and the subs could rattle your teeth out. The subs were later replaced with a huge Bose accoustical wave cannon at least 16 feet long, which made the previous subs sound pathetic.

Please wash your mouth out with soap! Bose!

Yeah who hasn't heard of the Bass Cannon?

I can imagine the feel good feeling for the need for bigger subs to move the air in the auditorium 20” is very uncommon. 18” is very common in cinemas.

Captain Rob wrote:

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All of our walls had that icky burlap covering popular in the 80's but the THX auditoriums had alot of sound proofing under the burlap. We also had sound baffles over the AC vents. One of them almost fell on an employee while we were cleaning up after a show.

Our smaller auditorium (500 seat) was converted the following year to a standard THX setup with much smaller surrounds. At least it also had a 35/70 projector.

Blimey I guess he would have been THX'ed if that landed on him!

Captain Rob wrote:

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UA was really big with THX sound. I think that they had more THX screens than anyone. After Regal took over in 2003 they did away with the THX certification because it costs money to use the THX logo and to recertify the auditoriums.

I still have the list of THX screens in world in a folder that THX sent over to me. It only dates back to early 1990's thou.

Captain Rob wrote:

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My last location with UA was the Northstar 8 in Garland outside of Dallas. We had two THX auditoriums that sounded even better when SDDS came out. I was there for 12 years. It's now a sportsbar that's closed most of the time.

That's rather sad ending by the sounds of it.

[Captain Rob]

Captain Rob wrote:
The subs were in three cabinets under the screen each with dual 18 - 20 inch woofers. When we ran "Top Gun" in 70 mm we ran the volume on full on opening night and the subs could rattle your teeth out. The subs were later replaced with a huge Bose accoustical wave cannon at least 16 feet long, which made the previous subs sound pathetic.

Please wash your mouth out with soap! Bose!

Yeah who hasn't heard of the Bass Cannon?

I can imagine the feel good feeling for the need for bigger subs to move the air in the auditorium 20” is very uncommon. 18” is very common in cinemas.

Even though I had left UA in 87' I stayed in contact with a friend that became an assistant manager there after I left. The main THX auditorium had a loft behind the screen where the speakers were with an area below the loft which was wherethe subs were. We also used that lower area to store popcorn seed and oil. It served as storage with both ends having a locked door. When I later came by to attend a screening for "Days of Thunder", my friend took me backscreen and goes "Look what we got." The old subs were replaced with the Bose accoustical wave cannon that was bolted to the floor. It stretched the length of the storage area. "Thunder" was the first movie to play with the upgrade and it sounded incredible. One of the local clubs I went to had two of those things suspened from the ceiling. If you sat your drink on a table near them, the liquid's surface would dance around.
The subs at the Northstar's THX auditoriums were twin 18" woofers in a single cabinet mounted to the floor in front of the screen. We had to have a pretty substantial metal mesh enclosure for them because people kept trying to steal them. From all of the different sound system setups I've seen over the years, the one in the Prestonwood's main auditorium was definitely overkill. But it was worth it. I wonder if the setup's been changed much with the new owners?
Knowing that the Northstar was going to close I photographed the hell out of it, especially the auditoriums and the projection booth. The shopping center owner had bought the building and he only bought the equipment for the two THX auditoriums. I also took alot of pictures after the closing and the sadest ones are of the booth with six of the projectors torn down and on the floor. And they took the huge "UA 8" off of the front of the building. My one keepsake is the faceplate for the THX crossover.

[Epsilon-9]

Captain Rob
Wow that’s an interesting story. I take you have put the pictures on photobucket of other for viewing?

Didn’t think the Bose Cannon was capable. I have "Day’s of Thunder" Top Gun on wheels on DVD it was also produced in CDS that had a short lifespan as well as 70mm Dolby stereo SR (SS) 35mm Dolby SR.

[Captain Rob]

One thing about the THX baffle wall you mentioned. I never really heard that term before so I looked it up on the THX website. It's like "Ding, ding, ding...that's what that was!" I remembered that the main auditorium at the UA Prestonwood had this thick insulation pad on the wall behind the screen. It was about 6 inches thick and was like very thick insulation. It was about the same size as the screen. You could only really see it when we did screen replacements. Other THX auditoriums had somewhat thinner ones. Prestonwood was odd because that main screen had originally been mounted flush with the wall when the theatre was built in 1980. The backscreen speakers were mounted in housings cut through the wall. When the THX upgrade was done, a false wall was created that mounted the screen. The speaker loft spanned the space betweeh the sceen and the back wall, which created the storage area below where the subs were. That mysterious pad looked weird just stuck to the back wall.
I really miss running those THX trailers. With the original 70 mm one we'd ramp the volume knob up full blast at the end when the house was full. And everyone would clap. It would rattle the drinks out at the concession stand.

[Epsilon-9]

Captain Rob wrote:

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One thing about the THX baffle wall you mentioned. I never really heard that term before so I looked it up on the THX website. It's like "Ding, ding, ding...that's what that was!"

I can see how that would come on their site today! Its not the same as the original THX site in the 90’s, till it was sold/privatized that’s why its no longer called “LucasFilm THX” its just called “THX” now.

Oh its under the word “THX baffle wall” alright. THX even produced “The THX Bafflette” (this was in published, volume 1 number 5 June 1992 issue of “THX monitor”) that looks like the old traditional Altec or other loudspeakers of there heyday with large wings attached to sides of the enclosures.

Here is a small collection of the THX monitor and THX files I have.





Here is a small collection of the THX monitor and THX files I have.

Also some THX promotional martial. I wouldn’t mind the THX lobby poster and there are plenty of copies around for sale to day. I don’t want a hammered butchered up THX poster that looked like cat shredded it!

Captain Rob wrote:

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I really miss running those THX trailers. With the original 70 mm one we'd ramp the volume knob up full blast at the end when the house was full. And everyone would clap. It would rattle the drinks out at the concession stand.

I can understand the desire/need to turn it way up! But that puts the speakers at great risk unless the amps and loudspeakers can handle those tolerance levels. (Oh, yes everyone knows THX tests them with THX torture test to see what there breaking point is).

Usually its mark “7” on the Dolby house fader, which is plenty loud enough! Unless it’s a film with soft dynamics and there are plenty of those around.

I heard a rumour that the Empire Leicester Square busted in one of few JBL 4645 sometime during the early 90’s with “THX Cimarron” which almost made me jump out the seat when the conductors hand strike up the unchristian with WHAM BOOM! then as the THX logo comes midway on the screen the subs become active and rattle the cinema something silly LOL.

Music for that was produced by James Horner for Willow in Dolby 70mm (SS).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THX

Well one of the projectionist no longer works there, told me that they had to replace some 18” sub bass drives. It must have been the part where the subwoofer “boom channel” comes on!

Captain Rob wrote:

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The backscreen speakers were mounted in housings cut through the wall. When the THX upgrade was done, a false wall was created that mounted the screen. The speaker loft spanned the space betweeh the sceen and the back wall, which created the storage area below where the subs were. That mysterious pad looked weird just stuck to the back wall.

Must be secondary absorbent martial to damper down the bass behind the THX baffle most regular non-THX cinemas have some absorbent on the back wall. The THX baffle wall is covered to stop the high frequencies from zigzagging off the perforated screen and reflecting back milliseconds after they have left the speakers.

[Epsilon-9]

Here are some, very rare video interview with Tomlinson Holman “THX” (It took about 10 or more keywords several days searching around to find this). I was wondering if he had done an video interview and low and behold, I found this several years back. Enjoy them!

Please give the videos a few seconds to load/start-up its QuickPlay some videos are shot some are rather long. It all makes since with the videos rather than reading though pages and pages of white papers on the internet, unless you want.

These videos must have been recorded late 2004 or early 2005 as Tom mentions “Troy” (2004) in digital projection.

Part 1 How did THX come about?
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/1040...TOKEN=92081103

Part 2 THX baffle wall and mathematics?
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/1040...TOKEN=92081103

Part 3 5.1, and the future of more channels VS the frequency range and dynamic range?
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/1040...TOKEN=92081103

Part 4 The future of multi-channel music?
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/1040...TOKEN=92081103

Part 5 Wave field and multi channel, 1933 stereo experiment?
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/1040...TOKEN=92081103

Part 6 The future of Digital cinema and surround music?
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/1040...=GUIDE&CFID=32