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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old May 3 2010, 10:45 PM   #226
Rojixus
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

The fact that the Borg didn't send two cubes in FC proves my argument that the Borg cannot be antagonized. The number of cubes they send to a conflict appears to be completely random. Picard was wrong, he should have released the virus. There is no other way around it. You have no proof that the Borg can be antagonized, your entire argument has no foundation. In what way was the planet of 100,000 people more of a threat to the Borg than the Federation. Why didn't the Borg send a fleet of cubes to subdue the Federation. The Federation already destroyed two Borg ships, more than that other species. You keep giving me the runaround Anwar, I want straight answers!
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Old May 4 2010, 12:10 AM   #227
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

That they sent a fleet of Cubes to that one planet, as well as Guinan saying that they came in true force (implying she didn't consider that one Cube a force) in the FIRST Borg episode shows that there are different levels of Borg assault. Hell, even Q mentioned about "provoking the Borg!". It was also shown that the Borg can and DO ignore species entirely.

Releasing the virus WOULD have provoked them, and brought on a heavier assault.

How were those 100,000 people more a threat? They never said, but it was perfectly in keeping with Guinan's "When they come they come IN FORCE". Those 100,000 people merited a REAL response UNLIKE the Federation. Just because they give us their life history doesn't mean they weren't considered serious by the Borg.

Why didn't the send a fleet, when we've seen the Borg send fleets against others (like the 8472)? Because they don't rank as a threat by the Borg. Simple logic.

Until you give proof that the Borg see the Feds as a worthwhile threat and that the Virus WOULD have worked beyond "Because Picard and co thought so!" (which means nothing), you're the one doing the runaround.
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Old May 4 2010, 12:27 AM   #228
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

I think that Picard and co thinking it would work is pretty good evidence that it would have worked. I mean, just because we don't understand it, doesn't mean it won't work. If a scientist says that hittiong one subatomic particle with another one will create such-and-such, do you have to understand it to accept it, or do you just accept it? So why not do the same thing here?
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Old May 4 2010, 12:42 AM   #229
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Because all the math checks out with the bloody particles!
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Old May 4 2010, 12:45 AM   #230
Rojixus
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

How were those 100,000 people more a threat? They never said
THAT'S RIGHT! They never said those 100,000 people were more of a threat, YOU ASSUMED THEY WERE A THREAT TO THE BORG WITHOUT EVIDENCE!

Also, why didn't the Borg attack the Federation en masse when Voyager developed a weapon to defeat Species 8472? Species 8472 could destroy a Borg cube with a single shot, yet Voyager found a way to defeat them. For all the Borg knew, the Federation could develop similar weapons against them. Would that not move them up on the Borg threat level?

The burden of proof is on you Anwar, you claim that the weapon would not have worked (even though Picard thought the weapon would work, what makes you think you know more about the Borg than Picard?) and that the Borg would have been antagonized into sending a "real attack". You have yet to prove your claims. You refuse to see the obvious: When you have no doubt on the effectiveness of a weapon designed to kill an enemy that is hell-bent on the destruction of your civilization, YOU ARE MORALLY OBLIGATED TO USE IT! It is as simple as that, PICARD WAS WRONG.
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Old May 4 2010, 02:07 AM   #231
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

No, they were a greater threat based on HOW THE BORG REACTED. They just didn't bother going into their extended history, they didn't HAVE to. What matters is that the Borg took a heavier response to them than they EVER did with the Feds, which is Proof IN AND OF ITSELF that they were a greater threat. No further elaboration is needed.

Voyager created their weaponry based on simply using pre-existing Borg tech in a new way. The Borg KNEW that VOY couldn't turn something the Borg created pretty much on their own against them (all the VOY crew did was just redirect how that tech worked) and thus backed off. They had no reason to do anything else since they know that VOY can't easily replicate that weapon (if they can at all) to the extent of harming the Borg, if it can even harm them to begin with.

I know the weapon wouldn't have worked from "Descent". It doesn't matter if the episode came out later or not. And I know from other episodes that the Borg leave races alone and don't just assimilate everything in sight. This explains their behavior in FC as well in sending only one Cube.

What you refuse to see, is the big picture: When you have a force out there that can crush you easily but isn't bothering to because you're not worth the effort, you DON'T provoke them into attacking you with something you haven't even tested to see if it can really kill them beyond some engineers saying 'Theoretically it should kill them'. All you're doing is risking it all on something that may not even work with the greater probability of PO'ing this stronger force into thinking "f*** it, let's just kill this mofos and get them out of our hair once and for all." It's suicide.
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Old May 4 2010, 02:44 AM   #232
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

No, they were a greater threat based on HOW THE BORG REACTED. They just didn't bother going into their extended history, they didn't HAVE to. What matters is that the Borg took a heavier response to them than they EVER did with the Feds, which is Proof IN AND OF ITSELF that they were a greater threat. No further elaboration is needed.
THAT IS CIRCULAR REASONING! THAT DOES NOT PROVE YOUR POINT AT ALL!

You are dancing around the issue. If you thought you had a sure way to end a threat to your civilization once and for all, would you not use it? If the Federation was capable of provoking the Borg into sending a fleet of cubes, the Borg would have done so already. Wouldn't Janeway's actions against the Borg merit a fleet? If not, why not? You cannot get around the fact that Picard was obligated by his oath to Starfleet to protect the Federation and HE FAILED TO DO THAT! This makes Picard a coward and an accomplice to genocide to all rational human beings.
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Old May 4 2010, 04:00 AM   #233
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
If the Federation was capable of provoking the Borg into sending a fleet of cubes, the Borg would have done so already.
PRECISELY, which shows that the Borg never thought of them as worthy of a fleet and thus left them alone most of the time. Best to NOT provoke them into a REAL attack when in that situation.

You cannot get around the fact that Picard was obligated by his oath to Starfleet to protect the Federation and HE FAILED TO DO THAT! This makes Picard a coward and an accomplice to genocide to all rational human beings.
No, it makes him an intelligent man who didn't provoke one of their greatest enemies into invading and destroying the Federation with a weapon that wasn't even totally confirmed as effective. All they had to go by were computer simulation and silly "I think this will work" rhetoric.
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Old May 4 2010, 04:34 AM   #234
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

In I Borg, no one even mentioned the possibility that the weapon wouldn't work. How is it that you know more about the Borg than Geordi Laforge or Jean-Luc Picard? They didn't think their use of the weapon would "provoke" the Borg, why do you? What makes you such an authority of the Borg? Once again, IF YOU HAVE A WEAPON THAT COULD DESTROY AN ENEMY HELL-BENT ON DESTROYING YOUR CIVILIZATION, YOU ARE MORALLY OBLIGATED TO USE IT!

I've heard what Anwar thinks, is there anyone else who disagrees with the above sentiment?
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Old May 4 2010, 11:04 AM   #235
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
In I Borg, no one even mentioned the possibility that the weapon wouldn't work.
Which, given everything they knew, didn't make any sense.

How is it that you know more about the Borg than Geordi Laforge or Jean-Luc Picard? They didn't think their use of the weapon would "provoke" the Borg, why do you?
Again, the writers didn't think it through themselves even though their own writing later on pretty much spelled out that the viral program wouldn't work.

What makes you such an authority of the Borg? Once again, IF YOU HAVE A WEAPON THAT COULD DESTROY AN ENEMY HELL-BENT ON DESTROYING YOUR CIVILIZATION, YOU ARE MORALLY OBLIGATED TO USE IT!
If the Borg were constantly attacking the Federation with more than one Cube every 5 years or so (and it was even less than that), then I could take your side more. But it wasn't like that. The Borg weren't taking the Feds seriously and thus not reacting seriously, whilst a provocation WOULD get a serious response.
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Old May 4 2010, 12:39 PM   #236
Rush Limborg
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
In I Borg, no one even mentioned the possibility that the weapon wouldn't work. How is it that you know more about the Borg than Geordi Laforge or Jean-Luc Picard? They didn't think their use of the weapon would "provoke" the Borg, why do you? What makes you such an authority of the Borg? Once again, IF YOU HAVE A WEAPON THAT COULD DESTROY AN ENEMY HELL-BENT ON DESTROYING YOUR CIVILIZATION, YOU ARE MORALLY OBLIGATED TO USE IT!

I've heard what Anwar thinks, is there anyone else who disagrees with the above sentiment?
I agree--100%.

If your enemy has made it clear that there can be no peace--if they have made it clear that it can only be you or them--you'd better darn well make sure it's you standing in the end.
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Old May 4 2010, 04:21 PM   #237
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Praxius, "in 'I, Borg', PICARD DID COMMIT GENOCIDE!

Picard had a chance to stop the borg and he didn't use it, knowing that the borg are and will continue to kill BILLIONS, in an orgy of violence, death and suffering beyond comprehension...
I think that's a bit of a stretch. First, you can not blame Picard for the actions the Borg did or didn't take. Each of us are responsible for our own actions. Picard may be responsible for the decision not to wipe out the Borg, but he is not responsible for the actions the Borg have conducted for centuries past or to come.

Secondly, the Borg assimilate and only kill when they have to.... they do not actually commit genocide.

The people, species, knowledge, history, etc. all exist in a manner of speaking, within the collective.

So to use the term "Genocide" the way you did, and to use such a strong word towards Picard for actions he never took is a bit short sighted in my opinion.

Picard either used the weapon against the borg (using Hugh), destroying the hive mind, or he didn't, in which case he, too, is responsible for the death of BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS at the hands of the borg.
I disagree with that analogy. If that were indeed true and one person could be directly blamed for the crimes of another by not "Stopping" them, then I'm sure plenty of people, countries and governments would all be equally guilty for what occurred in WWII and other atrocities.

It is an unfair and illogical approach to directly blame Picard for the actions the Borg did or didn't take.

Basically based on your argument, Picard had two choices.... directly cause Genocide by his own actions and hands.... or indirectly be involved in the actions of another who commits genocide..... but since the Borg don't really Genocide, but assimilate, there is only one case of genocide that would exist, which would be Picard sending the virus through the collective, which means the trillions of lives he'd kill in the collective would be on his head..... and I don't think I'd personally ask anybody to make that decision and live with it.

One can only choose the 'lesser evil' in this situation; there's no moral, 'white' choice.

Picard allowed the borg to endure, staining his hands with the blood of BILLIONS. Picard choose 'the GREATER evil', by far.

And why did Picard do this?
He did it in order to delude himself that, even in this situation, he made the perfectly moral, 'white' choice. So he took the choice that had the APPARENCE of being 'white', moral.
Hindsight 20/20 afterall.... it's easy to finger point at the decisions one makes after the fact, but at the time, it was reasonable to believe that sending the borg back as he was would cause enough destabilization in the collective to not only make the Borg no longer a legit threat, but also give those captured a chance to have individuality and fight for it like the Enterprise crew did for him while he was Locutus.

It was either that, or directly be responsible for countless deaths across the galaxy, ie: all the borg..... and when it comes to a decision like that, it should be up to the individual to decide what's the right choice for them.... which one they could live with.

As for the BILLIONS the borg continued to kill, well, if Picard didn't have to see their faces as they died, he can keep telling himself they're not his problem, that their blood is not staining his hands, too."
I'm not about to dictate what someone else may or may not think or tell themselves to justify an action. You have your view on what you would have done, I have mine.... and Picard had his.

I may never have seen all their faces if I made the decision, but that would be irrelevant.... the fact that I would have been directly responsible for the deaths of trillions of lives (across different quadrants of the galaxy overall) Your justifications would not suit as my justifications.

About 'alternatives' - in the episode it was pretty clearly established that the paradox was the only weapon with realistic chances of working:
"Consider the crew's attitude towards this 'individuality' weapon - a jaded it 'may' do something.
Compare it with their certainty that the paradox will work.

The individuality attack was a long shot, had very low chances of succes.
Enterprises' crew knew that - and they were proven right by the individuality attack's failure to even scrarch the collective - only 1 ship affected out of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CUBES the collective has? It didn't even slow down the borg!"
Hindsight 20/20 again, yeah.... whoops... live and learn.

But there's no assurance that the virus would have worked either. Sure the crew was convinced it'd work, but the crew also thought using the deflector dish as a weapon would destroy the borg cube in the Best of Both Worlds.

I doubt the Borg never encountered viruses and other programs sent into their collective to destroy them, and I bet like our computers we're typing and reading all this on, once the virus went into the system, they'd detect the foreign program and remove it... thus the whole effort would have been pointless.

And if it would have worked, it begs the question, why didn't Janeway use a similar program to defeat the Borg in Voyager?

Last edited by Praxius; May 4 2010 at 05:05 PM.
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Old May 4 2010, 04:27 PM   #238
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
Gentlemen, you're starting to forget the question being asked here: Was Picard wrong not to release that virus in I Borg? I say he was. Picard thought he had a sure way to get rid of the Borg once and for all and he didn't take it, thus possibly condemning billions to assimilation (Which, according to Picard's actions in FC, is worse than death). This make Picard the worst kind of coward, he was willing to put the Federation in mortal jeopardy just so he could do the "moral" thing.

It does not matter if the virus would or would not have worked, what matters is that Picard believed the virus would work. As Picard himself admitted, the moral thing to do is not always the right thing to do.
Let's also not forget that the question being presented is a subjective question that is different for each person answering it. There is no one mathematical, cut and dry answer to the question, because at the same time, what is "Moral" is also subjective to the individual.

The "Moral" thing to do is not always the right thing to do, yet the "Right" thing to do is dependent on what morals one believes in.

When someone believes the "Right" thing to do goes against a "Moral" thing, their determination of what is "Right" is directly related to that person's own "Morals."

It's a bit of a "Chicken and the Egg" Complex. Why you feel something is more right or more wrong then something else, is dependent to your own pre-set morals.

Which means there's no one true answer except the one you as an individual believe in. I can not tell you it is wrong, because then I'd be imposing my own pre-determined morals, just as you are doing trying to tell me my view in Picard being right is wrong.

It's all based on opinions on a situation that has no real true answer.
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Old May 4 2010, 04:35 PM   #239
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
The fact that the Borg didn't send two cubes in FC proves my argument that the Borg cannot be antagonized. The number of cubes they send to a conflict appears to be completely random. Picard was wrong, he should have released the virus. There is no other way around it. You have no proof that the Borg can be antagonized, your entire argument has no foundation. In what way was the planet of 100,000 people more of a threat to the Borg than the Federation. Why didn't the Borg send a fleet of cubes to subdue the Federation. The Federation already destroyed two Borg ships, more than that other species. You keep giving me the runaround Anwar, I want straight answers!
Just to jump in here, while you speak of someone having no proof.... you yourself have no proof that the virus would have worked in the first place, other then Picard being convinced it would have worked.

Picard has been wrong before and is only human. Apparently his choice to not use the virus is proof enough that he makes mistakes, based on your own argument, therefore his assumption that the virus would have worked is no proof at all, since it'd be logical the Borg would have some sort of Norton Anti-Virus setup for such an attack
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Old May 4 2010, 04:54 PM   #240
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
THAT IS CIRCULAR REASONING! THAT DOES NOT PROVE YOUR POINT AT ALL!

You are dancing around the issue. If you thought you had a sure way to end a threat to your civilization once and for all, would you not use it?
Speaking for myself, that question is too vague. If it meant the total annihilation of a culture, then no.

If the Federation was capable of provoking the Borg into sending a fleet of cubes, the Borg would have done so already. Wouldn't Janeway's actions against the Borg merit a fleet? If not, why not? You cannot get around the fact that Picard was obligated by his oath to Starfleet to protect the Federation and HE FAILED TO DO THAT! This makes Picard a coward and an accomplice to genocide to all rational human beings.
Funny... I think the US was being cowardly in dropping two bombs on civilian populated areas in Japan in order to avoid a land battle because it was the quick and easy way out without getting a little bloody..... but that's a different topic.

Picard was not only obligated by his oath to Starfleet to protect the Federation, he was also obligated to uphold the Prime Directive, which meant he couldn't willingly turn a sentient being into a weapon to wipe out the rest of his culture, people and way of life.

It's the Federation we're talking about here, not Cardassians.

In episodes "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" for DS9, they clearly touch on the aspect of what happens when Starfleet & Federation abandoned their principles for the sheer sake of being "Safe & Secure."

When you abandon your principles and everything that you believe in, just to protect your principles and everything that you believe in, you already lost.

Just look at the whole middle east thing right now. We're told that the Taliban and Al'Q hate our way of life and wish to destroy it..... people over the years became afraid and paranoid to the point where they allowed certain countries to remove certain rights and freedoms our cultures were based upon. Then those captured by the west are sent to secret torture facilities, held for years without charge, all their basic rights are removed and otherwise treated like animals.

Some would argue that because they don't believe in our way of life and wish to destroy it, they don't deserve the proper legal proceedings, rights protections, etc. we all take for granted. Some would also say that in order to defeat them, in order to protect our existing way of life, that we need to abandon some of our principles and way of life.

AKA: We begin to stoop to their level in order to fight them.

Exactly what message is that giving off?

It's stating that our way of life, our freedoms, our principles are too weak and ineffective to stand on their own and win..... thus when we abandon our way of life, we in turn prove to these clowns that they're right about our way of life and when we remove our rights, freedoms and laws to be applied to every human being..... they didn't directly destroy our way of life and our freedoms.... our own fear did.
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