Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

[BillJ]

Genocide is the argument that continues to confuse me.

Genocide - systematic killing of a racial or cultural group.

The Borg are an amalgam of various species they've assimilated over the years. And with a single hive mind I see little in the way of a good argument that they have a unique culture and that the universe would be losing something if they were eradicated.

The Borg at this point are nothing more than a wondering computer program executing a set on instructions given to it untold years. Picard should have pulled the plug.

[Rush Limborg]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Your post demonstrates you didn't bother to read most of my posts in the ~"Is genocide justified" thread.

So, you assume I haven't read your thread...just because I didn't reply the way you wanted to?

First - commiting genocide against non-combatants (such as the founders or Hiroshima/Nagasaki) is ALWAYS wrong - immoral, useless, unnecessary.

Were the Founders non-combattants? They were the rulers of the Jem'Hadar--the head of the serpent. Testify, please:

If the enemy (his army which you haven't touched) is stronger than you, he'll make you pay dearly for your crime - in blood.

Not if he's dead.

If the enemy is far weaker than you - your genocide us completely gratuitous - you have many other optionns to deal with said enemy.

Good point--except none of us have discussed that.

Second - what about an enemy army?
If this enemy army attacks you with genocidal intentions (such as the borg or Alpha Quadrant jem'hadar) you have the right to defend yourself by any means necessary.

Again 1), the Founders ruled the Jem'Hadar, 2), they created the Jem'Hadar. If the Jem'Hadar were wiped out, and the Founders were still at war with the Allies, the Founders would have raised up another army--with the experience of the previous battles to guide them. Thus, the Allies would be back to square one.

Starfleet was far inferior to the borg - there was no other realistic option to subdue the collective. The paradox was the federation's - and BILLIONS other beings' - ticket out of the grave. It was the only option to stop the collective, a genocidal army that continuously killed. It should have been used.

And the Founders were continuously paranoid and hateful of "solid" powers. They only stopped because they wanted Odo to return even more--and he made them an offer they couldn't refuse. In short, the Allies got lucky.

Again, billions upon billions of lives were at stake in the Dominion war, too.

[ProtoAvatar]

Rush Limborg wrote:

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So, you assume I haven't read your thread...just because I didn't reply the way you wanted to?

You prove you don't read the posts because you ask questions that I have already answered.
One recent example - in the DS9 thread, you didn't read the threads I mentioned and, 2 posts later, you were complaining I didn't provided them.

As for the Founder genocide - I already refuted your argument, Rush Limborg - multiple times. But you just kept repeating your tune, oblivious - you remind me of Anwar:

The founders had little involment in the administration of the Dominion/the leadership of Jem'hadar. The Vorta did thiese things most of the time.
Killing all the founders would only have made the Vorta/Jem'hadar, angrier, more determined. They would have never stopped coming for the Federation - NEVER. If it takes hundreds of years, they would still come.

As for defeating the Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar expeditionary force - replenishing ships and jem'hadar takes time and resources - and it can only be done in the gamma quadrant. The founders could not have sent anything to the Federation for decades.
At least some positive result - unlike killing the founders.

[Hartzilla2007]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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You prove you don't read the posts because you ask questions that I have already answered.
One recent example - in the DS9 thread, you didn't read the threads I mentioned and, 2 posts later, you were complaining I didn't provided them.

As for the Founder genocide - I already refuted your argument, Rush Limborg - multiple times. But you just kept repeating your tune, oblivious - you remind me of Anwar:

The founders had little involment in the administration of the Dominion/the leadership of Jem'hadar. The Vorta did thiese things most of the time.
Killing all the founders would only have made the Vorta/Jem'hadar, angrier, more determined. They would have never stopped coming for the Federation - NEVER. If it takes hundreds of years, they would still come.

As for defeating the Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar expeditionary force - replenishing ships and jem'hadar takes time and resources - and it can only be done in the gamma quadrant. The founders could not have sent anything to the Federation for decades.
At least some positive result - unlike killing the founders.

Yeah, yeah, yeah keep going on about how it is moral to kill what is basically a brainwashed army of slaves, but if you wipe out an enemy that is trying its damnest to kill you of it's own free will you're an amoral piece of garbage

[Rush Limborg]

Hold your breaths, folks--I AGREE with Hartzilla2007--his current point, at least.

To be perfectly frank, ProtoAvatar...you accuse me of repeating my questions--but I assure you, it is not because I did not read you answers. It is because you repeat your statements--albeit in embellished forms. I simply repeated it because you acted as if your statements explained themselves--which they did not.

Also, as "Starship Down" made perfectly clear--the Founders dying, in fact, result in the Jem'Hadar commiting suicide, for failing to save them. (I seem to recall you, or was it someone else, claiming that that was "just one incident"? Well...?)

Furthermore, you said the Vorta ran things most of the time. Recall that the F.C. took part in the formation of the alliance with the Breen--and that Weyoun constantly rebuked Damar with words along the lines of "You would disobey/question the Founder?"

Though Weyoun seemed to run things at first, the F.C. seemed to hold more authority as time went on.

Now...again, I do read your posts, all too well. You say:

Killing all the founders would only have made the Vorta/Jem'hadar, angrier, more determined. They would have never stopped coming for the Federation - NEVER. If it takes hundreds of years, they would still come.

And yet you also say:

As for defeating the Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar expeditionary force - replenishing ships and jem'hadar takes time and resources - and it can only be done in the gamma quadrant. The founders could not have sent anything to the Federation for decades.
At least some positive result - unlike killing the founders.

First you are incorrect--the Dominion could simply rebuild the Jem'Hadar cloning factories, as well as shipyards, etc.

Second--again, the situation is the same. Recall that in the finale, the Dominion fleet was going to be destroyed anyway. Thus, the only Jem'Hadar/Vorta threat, if your theory holds, would be from the Gamma Quadrant. So...what makes the two scenarios different?

Simple. The Founders--who had been, again, the designers of the Jem'Hadar and the enhanced Vorta--are wiped out in one scenario. In the other, they are not. Either way, the Domion is enraged, and out for revenge. However...in one scenario, the head of the serpent is cut off.

[ProtoAvatar]

Rush Limborg
Yet again, you prove that responding to you is a waste of timme - the arguments you presented here were also refuted by me in that ~"genocide" thread:

Killing the founders will still let you with a large and angry Jem'hadar army in the Alpha Quadrant.
Managing to defeat the Alpha Quadrant Dominion will leave the main Dominion unable to strike for decades. This is NOT a perfect solution? Well, don't expect perfect solutions from genocide.

The Vorta/Jem'hadar killing themselves insted of taking revenge in an unending Jihad is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY.

Creating LARGE NUMBERS of Jem'hadar/building ships takes resources and time - they don't appear out of thin air.

Edit - about Hartzilla2007's argument:
http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4046590&postcount=330

[Praxius]

indolover wrote:

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I think Picard should have gone ahead with the plan to destroy the Collective.

It wasn't just the Federation at stake, but the entire galaxy. I think making Picard very ethical was interesting writing, but I think Picard's moral nature got in the way here.

Another thing is that the whole reasoning why it was a wrong idea came from Beverly, and I think her characterisation was often weak, since she always used to judge things from Earth/human morality. She could never be objective in her analyses of situations.

No different then Dr. Bashir and his morality in some episodes. The Starfleet docs are simply trained a different way.

Was Picard right or wrong in his decision?

I think when they weighed all the options, allowing an individual mind to link to the collective sounded like a more "Human" solution, rather then committing mass genocide.

Sure it was a survival of the fittest where it's kinda a "Kill or be killed/assimilation" situation..... and don't forget that Picard was gunning for wiping them all out until he actually stopped looking at them as mindless automatons and actually talked to one to see that indeed, a person does still exist deep down inside.... they're victims.... prisoners if you will.

In the end, it seemed as though there was just as much of a chance for individuality to break apart the collective and remove the borg threat, then this virus idea which wouldn't have given anyone a chance at survival and individuality and thus wipe out billions of lives.

Simpler? Perhaps

Easier? Perhaps

Would it have been right to commit genocide when alternative options were available?

If you were in the same position and had no knowledge of the out come where Lore would have taken over and almost created an even worse form of Borg.... it'd be difficult for any of us to come to the exact same conclusions.

In the end, I believe Picard made the right decision, though I could understand if the alternative was chosen.

[Rush Limborg]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Killing the founders will still let you with a large and angry Jem'hadar army in the Alpha Quadrant.

As I said...the Jem'Hadar forces were on the brink of defeat in the finale.

Managing to defeat the Alpha Quadrant Dominion will leave the main Dominion unable to strike for decades. This is NOT a perfect solution? Well, don't expect perfect solutions from genocide.

And yet it is the EXACT same scenario I propose--EXCEPT for the fact that there are no Founders after the "genocide".

The Vorta/Jem'hadar killing themselves insted of taking revenge in an unending Jihad is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY.

Then why didn't they take revenge on Sisko and the others when that Founder DID die?

Creating LARGE NUMBERS of Jem'hadar/building ships takes resources and time - they don't appear out of thin air.

And again, the scenario is the same--the Dominion forces would only come from the Gamma Quadrant.

Yet again, you prove that responding to you is a waste of timme - the arguments you presented here were also refuted by me in that ~"genocide" thread:

Eh, no. In fact, quite the opposite. But now, as then, we could type until our fingers fall off, debating which one isn't responding properly. Doing so comes across as rather childish...so I won't.

[Praxius]

Rush Limborg wrote:

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Hold your breaths, folks--I AGREE with Hartzilla2007--his current point, at least.

To be perfectly frank, ProtoAvatar...you accuse me of repeating my questions--but I assure you, it is not because I did not read you answers. It is because you repeat your statements--albeit in embellished forms. I simply repeated it because you acted as if your statements explained themselves--which they did not.

Also, as "Starship Down" made perfectly clear--the Founders dying, in fact, result in the Jem'Hadar commiting suicide, for failing to save them. (I seem to recall you, or was it someone else, claiming that that was "just one incident"? Well...?)

Furthermore, you said the Vorta ran things most of the time. Recall that the F.C. took part in the formation of the alliance with the Breen--and that Weyoun constantly rebuked Damar with words along the lines of "You would disobey/question the Founder?"

Though Weyoun seemed to run things at first, the F.C. seemed to hold more authority as time went on.

Now...again, I do read your posts, all too well. You say:

And yet you also say:

First you are incorrect--the Dominion could simply rebuild the Jem'Hadar cloning factories, as well as shipyards, etc.

Second--again, the situation is the same. Recall that in the finale, the Dominion fleet was going to be destroyed anyway. Thus, the only Jem'Hadar/Vorta threat, if your theory holds, would be from the Gamma Quadrant. So...what makes the two scenarios different?

Simple. The Founders--who had been, again, the designers of the Jem'Hadar and the enhanced Vorta--are wiped out in one scenario. In the other, they are not. Either way, the Domion is enraged, and out for revenge. However...in one scenario, the head of the serpent is cut off.

For the record, the episode where they found the downed ship and the Jem killed themselves was "The Ship" - Season 5.... not "Starship Down" - Season 4.

The Vorta stayed alive and it was only the Jem'Hadar who were on the planet responsible for the rescue effort who killed themselves, because they were responsible for the Founder's safety..... note that the female Vorta transported back to the Jem'Hadar ship orbiting the planet after the conflict, which would mean someone had to still be alive on the ship to beam her back and to fly it.

In other episodes, it is noted that the Vorta are the ones who deal with the Cloning and White development, meanwhile it was the founders who made the Vorta smart in the first place..... so technically speaking, the Jem'Hadar and Vorta could have continued on if the Founders died..... but that's a "Could" meaning, I wouldn't be 100% sure on that.

[Anwar]

Rojixus wrote:

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How do you know? You have no proof.

They never launched a REAL invasion. They were never provoked into doing so.

Why do you think the Borg wouldn't be antagonized? Where is your proof?

They never attacked the Federation.

Wouldn't blowing up one of their ships warrant at least two cubes if the Borg could be antagonized? What proof do you have?

They didn't send two Cubes to Earth immediately after BOBW when they lost one, nor did they send two Cubes to Earth when they attacked again in FC.

What proof do you have that a planet of 100,000 people is more of a threat to the Borg than the Federation?

They launched a REAL invasion, compared to the one Cube attacks on the Feds. Proof in and of itself.

All she did was blow up one Unimatrix and kill some of them, not all of them. That virus wasn't supposed to do anything but kill the local area Borg.

What proof do you have of this?[/quote]

They never said that the Borg were all destroyed, just that one Unimatrix getting blown up.

You keep making these assertions without any facts to back them up.

Like you claim that Picard killed billions directly, when no one died at all?

Your position is getting shakier and shakier. How would a planet of 100,000 people be more of a threat than the Federation? If you want anyone to take you seriously, YOU MUST GIVE EVIDENCE!

The evidence was right there: They got attacked by multiple Cubes while the Feds only ever got one. That's proof in and of itself.

[ProtoAvatar]

Praxius wrote:

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Would it have been right to commit genocide when alternative options were available?

If you were in the same position and had no knowledge of the out come where Lore would have taken over and almost created an even worse form of Borg.... it'd be difficult for any of us to come to the exact same conclusions.

In the end, I believe Picard made the right decision, though I could understand if the alternative was chosen.

Praxius, "in 'I, Borg', PICARD DID COMMIT GENOCIDE!

Picard had a chance to stop the borg and he didn't use it, knowing that the borg are and will continue to kill BILLIONS, in an orgy of violence, death and suffering beyond comprehension...

Picard either used the weapon against the borg (using Hugh), destroying the hive mind, or he didn't, in which case he, too, is responsible for the death of BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS at the hands of the borg.
One can only choose the 'lesser evil' in this situation; there's no moral, 'white' choice.

Picard allowed the borg to endure, staining his hands with the blood of BILLIONS. Picard choose 'the GREATER evil', by far.

And why did Picard do this?
He did it in order to delude himself that, even in this situation, he made the perfectly moral, 'white' choice. So he took the choice that had the APPARENCE of being 'white', moral.
As for the BILLIONS the borg continued to kill, well, if Picard didn't have to see their faces as they died, he can keep telling himself they're not his problem, that their blood is not staining his hands, too."

About 'alternatives' - in the episode it was pretty clearly established that the paradox was the only weapon with realistic chances of working:
"Consider the crew's attitude towards this 'individuality' weapon - a jaded it 'may' do something.
Compare it with their certainty that the paradox will work.

The individuality attack was a long shot, had very low chances of succes.
Enterprises' crew knew that - and they were proven right by the individuality attack's failure to even scrarch the collective - only 1 ship affected out of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CUBES the collective has? It didn't even slow down the borg!"

[Rojixus]

Gentlemen, you're starting to forget the question being asked here: Was Picard wrong not to release that virus in I Borg? I say he was. Picard thought he had a sure way to get rid of the Borg once and for all and he didn't take it, thus possibly condemning billions to assimilation (Which, according to Picard's actions in FC, is worse than death). This make Picard the worst kind of coward, he was willing to put the Federation in mortal jeopardy just so he could do the "moral" thing.

It does not matter if the virus would or would not have worked, what matters is that Picard believed the virus would work. As Picard himself admitted, the moral thing to do is not always the right thing to do.

[Rojixus]

Anwar wrote:

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Everyone in the Federation, and likely the Alpha Quadrant.

No.



Because like I said, they don't care about the Feds that much to send such a force. The Feds are a fringe group that barely interest the Borg. The Borg have been shown to outright ignore other races and not assimilate them.



Yes.



What Janeway did to the Borg really isn't as big or as bad as the fandom made her actions out to be.

All she did was blow up one Unimatrix and kill some of them, not all of them. That virus wasn't supposed to do anything but kill the local area Borg.

The Borg will ignore species and not assimilate them, assimilated beings have been deassimilated and got over it. And "I, Borg" never explored its' ideas well enough to be anything more than mediocre.

Anwar wrote:

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They never launched a REAL invasion. They were never provoked into doing so.



They never attacked the Federation.



They didn't send two Cubes to Earth immediately after BOBW when they lost one, nor did they send two Cubes to Earth when they attacked again in FC.



They launched a REAL invasion, compared to the one Cube attacks on the Feds. Proof in and of itself.

What proof do you have of this?

They never said that the Borg were all destroyed, just that one Unimatrix getting blown up.

You keep making these assertions without any facts to back them up.

Like you claim that Picard killed billions directly, when no one died at all?

Your position is getting shakier and shakier. How would a planet of 100,000 people be more of a threat than the Federation? If you want anyone to take you seriously, YOU MUST GIVE EVIDENCE!

The evidence was right there: They got attacked by multiple Cubes while the Feds only ever got one. That's proof in and of itself.[/QUOTE]

HOW IS A PLANET OF 100,000 PEOPLE MORE OF A THREAT TO THE BORG THAN A FEDERATION OF BILLIONS?!!

Also, I don't recall saying Picard directly killed billions. Indirectly, he might have.

Why didn't the Borg send more than one cube in Star Trek: First Contact? If the Federation destroyed one cube, it would make sense to send two cubes the next time. After all, the Borg have plenty to spare.

Anwar, you are just repeating yourself because you know you are in the wrong. You can't back up what you claim. You say the Borg can be antagonized into launching a "real invasion" but you have no proof. I am beginning to suspect you are a troll.

[Anwar]

Rojixus wrote:

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HOW IS A PLANET OF 100,000 PEOPLE MORE OF A THREAT TO THE BORG THAN A FEDERATION OF BILLIONS?!!

Same way 100,000 Feds are more dangerous than billions of cavemen.

Why didn't the Borg send more than one cube in Star Trek: First Contact? If the Federation destroyed one cube, it would make sense to send two cubes the next time. After all, the Borg have plenty to spare.

If they operated like that, they'd have sent in two Cubes in FC after BOBW. They didn't. They never saw the Feds as worth more than one Cube. They didn't see the Feds as worth it.

Anwar, you are just repeating yourself because you know you are in the wrong. You can't back up what you claim. You say the Borg can be antagonized into launching a "real invasion" but you have no proof. I am beginning to suspect you are a troll.

Again, you're down to the personal insults when all else fails and YOU can't back up anything. I've come to expect it.

[Rush Limborg]

Praxius wrote:

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For the record, the episode where they found the downed ship and the Jem killed themselves was "The Ship" - Season 5.... not "Starship Down" - Season 4.

I know. My bad.

The Vorta stayed alive and it was only the Jem'Hadar who were on the planet responsible for the rescue effort who killed themselves, because they were responsible for the Founder's safety..... note that the female Vorta transported back to the Jem'Hadar ship orbiting the planet after the conflict, which would mean someone had to still be alive on the ship to beam her back and to fly it.

In other episodes, it is noted that the Vorta are the ones who deal with the Cloning and White development, meanwhile it was the founders who made the Vorta smart in the first place..... so technically speaking, the Jem'Hadar and Vorta could have continued on if the Founders died..... but that's a "Could" meaning, I wouldn't be 100% sure on that.

Could have--but I'm not convinced that they would have. But even so, without the Founders, the Alpha Quadrant faces a bit less of a threat. Think: no infiltrators.

Rojixus wrote:

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Gentlemen, you're starting to forget the question being asked here: Was Picard wrong not to release that virus in I Borg? I say he was. Picard thought he had a sure way to get rid of the Borg once and for all and he didn't take it, thus possibly condemning billions to assimilation (Which, according to Picard's actions in FC, is worse than death). This make Picard the worst kind of coward, he was willing to put the Federation in mortal jeopardy just so he could do the "moral" thing.

It does not matter if the virus would or would not have worked, what matters is that Picard believed the virus would work. As Picard himself admitted, the moral thing to do is not always the right thing to do.

I agree--to a point. I think Picard's last-minute conversion (to use a terrible metaphor) was basically due to the fact that Hugh, like it or not, was an individual with rights of his own.

I think, though, Picard should have discussed it with Hugh--and, if Greater Than The Sum is any indication, Hugh would have agreed.

But anyhow, recall also that Picard side-stepped his "high-horse" moralism by asserting that Hugh's individuality would spread like the virus would have, once he was re-connected.

Of course, Picard learned the error of his ways for real in "Descent". Ah, well....