Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

[Rush Limborg]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Rush Limborg:

I answered your question PAGES ago.
Do you EVER read the responses to your posts? Apparently, responding to you is a waste of time:

Yes...I did.

And to be honest, I have spent quite a while going over what the fact that it's all fiction has to do with anything......and I still can't figure it out!

What I do know...is that the Dominion is also fictional--and therefore, your claim to my issue's irrelevancy, due to said fictional status of the Borg, is invalid.

So...once again, we are back to square one. The Dominion is fictional, just as the Borg is fictional.

Once again...what makes genocide against the Borg (which is fictional) practical and moral (due to the prevention of the future slaughtering of innocent lives by the Borg), when you have previously stated that genocide against the Dominon (which is ALSO fictional) is impractical--because the ability to commit genocide presupposes, in your view, the ability to defeat the Dominion without genocide--and immoral, despite the similar prevention of the future slaughtering of innocent lives by the Dominion?

[Anwar]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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And don't be afraid to go into details, Anwar.

I know the Borg have been around for millennia, have assimilated trillions and have encountered races more advanced than the Federation. The idea that they NEVER ran into ANYONE who tried a viral attack is so STATISTICALLY low that it's idiotic to think no one tried it before. This is common sense. The idea that the Feds could create some kind of virus based on two encounters that could destroy the Borg is also idiotic.

Bad writing? Maybe.

Oh, definately.

But, Anwar, Picard - being a fictional character, created by the scenarists - IS this bad writing. If the script depicted him as a creep willing to sacrifice BILLIONS as long as he could fool himself that he fanatically followed his sacroant, rigid rules, THEN HE IS THIS CREEP.

I guess this makes Sisko and co creeps for not wiping out the Dominion with the virus as well. Since the continued existence of the Dominion is a threat that cannot be truly dealt with other than subjugation.

Alternatively, you can continue making a fool of yourself on this board.

S'okay, you're doing the primo job of that yourself. You even decided to drop down to personal insults level rather than debate.

[Rojixus]

Anwar, just because you think the episode was badly written does not help your argument at all, the episode is what it is. And the way the episode was written, Picard was clearly in the wrong. What future episodes establish about the Borg is irrelevant. In I BORG, PICARD WAS WRONG! Now if you have canon evidence that the virus featured in I Borg would not have worked (not just some conjecture on your end), your position might have some merit. Until then, you don't have a leg to stand on.

[Anwar]

What future episodes established is perfectly relevant. Until you can prove that the virus WOULD have worked, you don't have the leg to stand on.

[BillJ]

Anwar wrote:

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What future episodes established is perfectly relevant. Until you can prove that the virus WOULD have worked, you don't have the leg to stand on.

Based on the information available in the episode, Picard should have used the virus. There is no other way to interpret it. He had the opportunity to deal a crippling blow to a potential threat to the Federation.

"Our primary duty is to maintain life and safety of Federation planets.". That line was spoken by Matt Decker in The Doomsday Machine. In I, Borg, Picard violated that oath.

[Rojixus]

What future episodes establish is irrelevant because at the time I Borg was written, they hadn't happened yet! Let us get to the basic question: Was Picard wrong in I Borg? Yes he was. According to the Enterprise crew, the virus was sure to work and Picard (who was assimilated by the Borg) did not even mention the possibility that it may not work. The burden of proof is on you Anwar, not them or I. Until you have canon proof that the virus would have failed, you are just as wrong as Picard was.

[Anwar]

"Descent", that is all the proof I need.

As for the crew and Picard, it was just bad writing they never considered the possibility of it failing.

Was Picard wrong? No, you don't commit casual genocide. It would be NO different than if Kirk unleashed a virus to kill all Klingons/Romulans in TOS, or if the Feds allowed the virus to kill all Founders in DS9. You want Picard to do that to the Borg, then you agree with other Captains doing the same to their enemies as well.

And no, the Borg being a Collective makes no difference.

[Rojixus]

And no, the Borg being a Collective makes no difference.

How does it not make a difference? We have individual Klingons, Romulans and even individual founders (more or less). We do not have individual Borg drones who are still connected to the collective.

As for the crew and Picard, it was just bad writing they never considered the possibility of it failing.

Just because the writing of the episode does not support your flawed position does not diminish its quality.

"Descent", that is all the proof I need.

Descent was made after I Borg, so it is irrelevant in this discussion.

[Anwar]

No it doesn't, it was made by the same production team telling a story about the same character which clarified that the whole plot of "I, Borg" was pointless and doomed to failure if implemented. It came later, but still clarified the whole thing.

Being individuals or a Collective didn't matter, the Klingons Romulans and Founder showed that they were the Feds enemies (for their time periods). The Borg can also be made into individuals, their Collective broken. There's little difference, an enemy is and enemy.

And yes, that they didn't bother thinking that it might be less than perfect IS a major flaw which made the episode not that well-done nor thought-provoking on the issues discussed (such as this one).

As it stands, we are just dancing the same old tune of whether the virus would work or not. I believe it wouldn't, you and ProtoAvatar believe it would. I see the big-picture, you see the small immediate scenario. I see billions saved, you see imaginary billions potentially killed (since the Borg never killed billions afterwards).

[Rojixus]

Billions saved? Who was saved by Picard's cowardly decision? You say the virus could have somehow antagonized the Borg into launching a full invasion of the Federation but what is your proof? Don't you think the Borg would have been equally "antagonized" by the fact that the Federation could even conceive of such a virus? If you want to look at the big picture, why didn't the Borg send more cubes than they did in STFC? They sent a fleet of cubes to assimilate one planet of only 100,000 people, do you think they rate more of a threat to the Borg than a Federation of thousands of warships? Also, that Janeway did a lot to "antagonize" the Borg, why didn't the Borg send a fleet to subdue the Federation then?

In the end, maybe the entire argument is academic, Admiral Janeway did what Picard should have done and released a virus that effectively crippled the Borg, if not outright killed them off. She did the right thing, Picard didn't. THE BORG ARE WITHOUT MERCY, THEY DO NOT CARE IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE ASSIMILATED! Many people would rather be dead than assimilated, or at least that is what Picard thought. Also, just because I Borg refutes your main argument does not make it a bad episode.

[ProtoAvatar]

Rush Limborg wrote:

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Yes...I did.

And to be honest, I have spent quite a while going over what the fact that it's all fiction has to do with anything......and I still can't figure it out!

What I do know...is that the Dominion is also fictional--and therefore, your claim to my issue's irrelevancy, due to said fictional status of the Borg, is invalid.

So...once again, we are back to square one. The Dominion is fictional, just as the Borg is fictional.

Once again...what makes genocide against the Borg (which is fictional) practical and moral (due to the prevention of the future slaughtering of innocent lives by the Borg), when you have previously stated that genocide against the Dominon (which is ALSO fictional) is impractical--because the ability to commit genocide presupposes, in your view, the ability to defeat the Dominion without genocide--and immoral, despite the similar prevention of the future slaughtering of innocent lives by the Dominion?

"Yes...I did."
Doubtful. Your post demonstrates you didn't bother to read most of my posts in the ~"Is genocide justified" thread.

First - commiting genocide against non-combatants (such as the founders or Hiroshima/Nagasaki) is ALWAYS wrong - immoral, useless, unnecessary.
If the enemy (his army which you haven't touched) is stronger than you, he'll make you pay dearly for your crime - in blood.
If the enemy is far weaker than you - your genocide us completely gratuitous - you have many other optionns to deal with said enemy.

Second - what about an enemy army?
If this enemy army attacks you with genocidal intentions (such as the borg or Alpha Quadrant jem'hadar) you have the right to defend yourself by any means necessary.

If you're far stronger than the enemy army - such as, you can defeat them any time you want - eliminating this army is wrong simply because you have other realistic options for dealing with it.
The federation was not in this position with the borg. On the contrary. Starfleet was far inferior to the borg - there was no other realistic option to subdue the collective. The paradox was the federation's - and BILLIONS other beings' - ticket out of the grave. It was the only option to stop the collective, a genocidal army that continuously killed. It should have been used.

[ProtoAvatar]

double post

[ProtoAvatar]

Anwar wrote:

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I know the Borg have been around for millennia, have assimilated trillions and have encountered races more advanced than the Federation.

Picard&co knew this too, Anwar. That's beginner's information regarding the borg.
And, unlike you, Anwar, they knew much about HOW they assimilated those TRILLIONS - FAR beyond they stick needels in one's neck and inject one with nanoprobes.

The idea that they NEVER ran into ANYONE who tried a viral attack is so STATISTICALLY low that it's idiotic to think no one tried it before. This is common sense. The idea that the Feds could create some kind of virus based on two encounters that could destroy the Borg is also idiotic.

Idiotic? According to your biased speculations, Anwar.
NOT according to Picard&co - experts in this field.

I guess this makes Sisko and co creeps for not wiping out the Dominion with the virus as well. Since the continued existence of the Dominion is a threat that cannot be truly dealt with other than subjugation.

Straw man argument. Read my previous post for details.

[Anwar]

Rojixus wrote:

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Billions saved? Who was saved by Picard's cowardly decision?

Everyone in the Federation, and likely the Alpha Quadrant.

You say the virus could have somehow antagonized the Borg into launching a full invasion of the Federation but what is your proof? Don't you think the Borg would have been equally "antagonized" by the fact that the Federation could even conceive of such a virus?

No.

If you want to look at the big picture, why didn't the Borg send more cubes than they did in STFC?

Because like I said, they don't care about the Feds that much to send such a force. The Feds are a fringe group that barely interest the Borg. The Borg have been shown to outright ignore other races and not assimilate them.

They sent a fleet of cubes to assimilate one planet of only 100,000 people, do you think they rate more of a threat to the Borg than a Federation of thousands of warships?

Yes.

Also, that Janeway did a lot to "antagonize" the Borg, why didn't the Borg send a fleet to subdue the Federation then?

What Janeway did to the Borg really isn't as big or as bad as the fandom made her actions out to be.

In the end, maybe the entire argument is academic, Admiral Janeway did what Picard should have done and released a virus that effectively crippled the Borg, if not outright killed them off. She did the right thing, Picard didn't.

All she did was blow up one Unimatrix and kill some of them, not all of them. That virus wasn't supposed to do anything but kill the local area Borg.

THE BORG ARE WITHOUT MERCY, THEY DO NOT CARE IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE ASSIMILATED! Many people would rather be dead than assimilated, or at least that is what Picard thought. Also, just because I Borg refutes your main argument does not make it a bad episode.

The Borg will ignore species and not assimilate them, assimilated beings have been deassimilated and got over it. And "I, Borg" never explored its' ideas well enough to be anything more than mediocre.

[Rojixus]

Everyone in the Federation, and likely the Alpha Quadrant.

How do you know? You have no proof.

No.

Why do you think the Borg wouldn't be antagonized? Where is your proof?

Because like I said, they don't care about the Feds that much to send such a force. The Feds are a fringe group that barely interest the Borg. The Borg have been shown to outright ignore other races and not assimilate them.

Wouldn't blowing up one of their ships warrant at least two cubes if the Borg could be antagonized? What proof do you have?

Yes.

What proof do you have that a planet of 100,000 people is more of a threat to the Borg than the Federation?

All she did was blow up one Unimatrix and kill some of them, not all of them. That virus wasn't supposed to do anything but kill the local area Borg.

What proof do you have of this?

You keep making these assertions without any facts to back them up. Your position is getting shakier and shakier. How would a planet of 100,000 people be more of a threat than the Federation? If you want anyone to take you seriously, YOU MUST GIVE EVIDENCE!