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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old May 2 2010, 01:49 AM   #181
Rojixus
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

They won't want to send a 1000 Cubes until the targets make themselves worth it
The Borg once sent a fleet to assimilate a world with a population of only 100,000. Were they more of a threat to the Borg than the Federation? Also, just because no other species have successfully used a virus-like attack doesn't mean it is impossible. For all you know, the virus the Enterprise crew came up with might have been radically different from any tried before.

Anyway, the Federation wouldn't pose much of a threat to the Borg if the virus could be easily contained by the Collective, would it? And once again, PICARD WAS SURE THE VIRUS WOULD WORK! If you thought you had a sure way to end the Borg, it would be ethically abhorrent for you not to use it. Let's face it, PICARD WAS WRONG, there should have been a court-martial.
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Old May 2 2010, 01:52 AM   #182
Anwar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
They won't want to send a 1000 Cubes until the targets make themselves worth it
The Borg once sent a fleet to assimilate a world with a population of only 100,000. Were they more of a threat to the Borg than the Federation?
Judging from them sending a fleet, yes.

Anyway, the Federation wouldn't pose much of a threat to the Borg if the virus could be easily contained by the Collective, would it? And once again, PICARD WAS SURE THE VIRUS WOULD WORK!
Bad writing.

If you thought you had a sure way to end the Borg, it would be ethically abhorrent for you not to use it. Let's face it, PICARD WAS WRONG, there should have been a court-martial.
That no one else thought "You know, this might not work" then the episode would have been loads better. As it is, it's just a mediocrely-written episode where major plot questions aren't answered.
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Old May 2 2010, 02:12 AM   #183
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Anyway, the Federation wouldn't pose much of a threat to the Borg if the virus could be easily contained by the Collective, would it? And once again, PICARD WAS SURE THE VIRUS WOULD WORK!
Again the Borg can cut off infected cubes, so Picard can be sure as he wants to be, but being sure isn't worth shit when it's proven that you're WRONG.
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Old May 2 2010, 02:35 AM   #184
Rojixus
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Anyway, the Federation wouldn't pose much of a threat to the Borg if the virus could be easily contained by the Collective, would it? And once again, PICARD WAS SURE THE VIRUS WOULD WORK!
Again the Borg can cut off infected cubes, so Picard can be sure as he wants to be, but being sure isn't worth shit when it's proven that you're WRONG.
If you were sure the virus would work, then you are ethically obligated to use it, regardless if it actually works in the end or not. The fact that no one said or even implied the virus might not work should have left Picard with no doubt about the Virus' effectiveness. When Picard tried to justify his act of cowardice to Admiral Nechaev, not once did he say he doubted the virus would have worked. PICARD SHOULD HAVE USED THE VIRUS!

Also, I think a Federation of billions is more of a threat to the Borg than a planet of 100,000 people.
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Old May 2 2010, 09:01 AM   #185
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Again the Borg can cut off infected cubes, so Picard can be sure as he wants to be, but being sure isn't worth shit when it's proven that you're WRONG.
Now you're uselessly repeating a refuted argument:

"The information paradox, the individuality sense and that biological virus from VOY are completely different weapons:

It's common sense that a biological virus won't spread beyond a ship;

Enterprise's crew predicted the borg security measures will most likely neutralise the individuality sense attack - which happened.
Considering the 'intimate' experiece both Picard and Data had with the hive mind - among other things - you can be sure that, by the time of 'I, Borg', Starfleet had a pretty good ideea about how the hive mind operates; an incomparably more accurate image than the superficial knowledge you have even NOW.

Everyone on the Enterprise was SURE the paradox program will manage to dismantle the hive mind, go around its security measures. Frankly, your opinion is worthless by comparison.
The paradox had a very good chace of objectively working.

And, indeed, Picard was CONVINCED the paradox will work when he made his choice. PICARD INTENDED TO CONDEMN TO DEATH AND ASSIMILATION BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS, the borg's future victims. All so that he can fanaticly claim he 'always' took the perfect 'white' choice. Monstruous.


PS: You're the one who claims to know 'everything' about the borg - far more than Data or Geordi - when, in truth, you only have a ridicuously shallow knowledge of their tech. Not me."

Anwar:

The borg already marked the Federation for assimilation.
They WILL COME no matter what the Federation does or doesn't do.
As for weapons to fight the borg - thousands of assimilated species stand testimony that they're hard to come by. The paradox is as good as they get. The Federation is very unlikely to find a better weapon no matter how long the borg postpone their invasion.
The paradox was a godsend - if used it could have saved BILLIONS, it could have saved the Alpha Quadrant, the Federation itself! And yet, Picard didn't used it, condemning the galaxy to death and suffering beyond imagination. And you call this 'moral' - ridiculous.
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Old May 2 2010, 10:31 AM   #186
billcosby
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Picard is never wrong.
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Old May 2 2010, 11:07 AM   #187
Anwar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
The borg already marked the Federation for assimilation.
They WILL COME no matter what the Federation does or doesn't do.
And it's better if the Feds don't do anything to provoke them into coming faster.

As for weapons to fight the borg - thousands of assimilated species stand testimony that they're hard to come by. The paradox is as good as they get. The Federation is very unlikely to find a better weapon no matter how long the borg postpone their invasion.
Those weapons they had in VOY's future finale say otherwise.

The paradox was a godsend - if used it could have saved BILLIONS, it could have saved the Alpha Quadrant, the Federation itself! And yet, Picard didn't used it, condemning the galaxy to death and suffering beyond imagination. And you call this 'moral' - ridiculous.
You say I'm repeating myself when you do the same thing: The paradox was nothing, would've saved NO ONE and simply would've CAUSED billions to die.
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Old May 2 2010, 11:28 AM   #188
carlmarx
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Well, I probably shouldve read the whole discussion so far, cuz this may have been mentioned. If it has been, forgive me....

But wasn't the point of "I, Borg", not that the genocide would be wrong, but that using Hugh as the instrument after he had regained individuality was wrong? The fact of the matter was that Picard changed his mind after he realized Hugh was capable of making the choice as an individual, that he had wants and preferences just like the rest of them. Everyone apart from Crusher agreed pretty quickly that the plan was right to do, it was the idea of using Hugh to do it that created the moral dilemma.
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Old May 2 2010, 11:52 AM   #189
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
The borg already marked the Federation for assimilation.
They WILL COME no matter what the Federation does or doesn't do.
As for weapons to fight the borg - thousands of assimilated species stand testimony that they're hard to come by. The paradox is as good as they get. The Federation is very unlikely to find a better weapon no matter how long the borg postpone their invasion.
Those weapons they had in VOY's future finale say otherwise.
Those VOY finale weapons were ineffectual by comparison to the paradox.
How many cubes could be destroyed by those VOY finale torpedos before the borg adapt? A few thousand? The borg have MILLIONS OF CUBES!
The VOY finale weapons could only slow down - somewhat - the borg. The paradox could stop the collective once and for all.

The paradox was a godsend - if used it could have saved BILLIONS, it could have saved the Alpha Quadrant, the Federation itself! And yet, Picard didn't used it, condemning the galaxy to death and suffering beyond imagination. And you call this 'moral' - ridiculous.
You say I'm repeating myself when you do the same thing: The paradox was nothing, would've saved NO ONE and simply would've CAUSED billions to die.
Anwar:

Your opinion regarding the paradox means nothing by comparison to Picard/Data/crew/Starfleet's opinion.
Why? Because you know practically nothing regarding borg tech, as opposed to them.

Picard&co say the paradox has a very high chance of working? In this case, the paradox HAS this high chance of working.
You come with speculation that the paradox won't work simply because it's the only defense you can think of for your idols? Your affirmation is worthless.


And you know what the ironic part is?
When discussing the morality of Picard's choice, it doesn't even matter if the paradox would have objectively worked or not. This point you have been trying - and failing - to prove is irrelevent.

What matters is that PICARD WAS CONVINCED THE PARADOX WILL WORK. He DECIDED TO SACRIFICE BILLIONS so that he can delude himself that he's always moral.
In his subjective forum, PICARD INTENDED TO CONDEMN TO DEATH BILLIONS, when he WAS CERTAIN HE COULD SAVE THEM ALL, Anwar.
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Old May 2 2010, 11:56 AM   #190
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

carlmarx wrote: View Post
Well, I probably shouldve read the whole discussion so far, cuz this may have been mentioned. If it has been, forgive me....

But wasn't the point of "I, Borg", not that the genocide would be wrong, but that using Hugh as the instrument after he had regained individuality was wrong? The fact of the matter was that Picard changed his mind after he realized Hugh was capable of making the choice as an individual, that he had wants and preferences just like the rest of them. Everyone apart from Crusher agreed pretty quickly that the plan was right to do, it was the idea of using Hugh to do it that created the moral dilemma.
But you see, carlmarx, in 'I, Borg', PICARD DID COMMIT GENOCIDE!

Picard had a chance to stop the borg and he didn't use it, knowing that the borg are and will continue to kill BILLIONS, in an orgy of violence, death and suffering beyond comprehension...

Picard either used the weapon against the borg (using Hugh), destroying the hive mind, or he didn't, in which case he, too, is responsible for the death of BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS at the hands of the borg.
One can only choose the 'lesser evil' in this situation; there's no moral, 'white' choice.

Picard allowed the borg to endure, staining his hands with the blood of BILLIONS. Picard choose 'the GREATER evil', by far.

And why did Picard do this?
He did it in order to delude himself that, even in this situation, he made the perfectly moral, 'white' choice. So he took the choice that had the APPARENCE of being 'white', moral.
As for the BILLIONS the borg continued to kill, well, if Picard didn't have to see their faces as they died, he can keep telling himself they're not his problem, that their blood is not staining his hands, too.
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Old May 2 2010, 12:19 PM   #191
Rush Limborg
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

The Dominion killed billions, too, ProtoAvatar--and you didn't seem to think it sould be justified to use genocide against them.

Again, you specifically said--in no uncertain terms--that if a race is capable of using genocide against an enemy, it therefore is also capable of using "better" methods to defeat said enemy.

And yet you now claim that, because Picard tried an alternative to genocide, he is guilty of the deaths of the billions upon billions slaughtered/assimilated by the Borg.
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Old May 2 2010, 12:27 PM   #192
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rush Limborg:

I answered your question PAGES ago.
Do you EVER read the responses to your posts? Apparently, responding to you is a waste of time:

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
....

I'm amazed, ProtoAvatar. I seem to recall your saying in a previous debate with yours truly--in no uncertain terms--that if a power, such as the UFP, were capable of commiting genocide and wiping out an entire enemy...that it would therefore also be capable of defeating said enemy without having to resort to genocide!

Have you re-examined the validity of that assertion, sir? Because, by this new argument, genocide against the Dominion is justified because it prevents genocide on the Dominion's part against billions upon billions of victims of said Dominion....

(In case everyone else is wondering...I'm referring to a previous debate in which we discussed the changeling virus.

And yes, I am aware that he and I also discussed the practicality of the virus--but at the moment, we are discussing genocide in general. Namely--can you justify genocide because it will probably--even decidedly--prevent the genocide of other races?

And...if we were discussing practicality--of course, the changeling-virus practicality is every bit as debatable as that of the Borg-virus--for the same reasons. Just saying.)
"Have you re-examined the validity of that assertion, sir? "

Hardly, Rush Limborg.

You see, the scenarists made the borg ridiculosly 'evil' - one mind, one unchanging will, no civilians whatsoever, continuous genocide, etc

The emergence of such an army is only tenable in fiction.
In real life, such a case NEVER occured and will never occur. Anyone who even comes close to something like that will self-destruct.

As for the Founders and the Dominion - they're not even close to this situation!
The Founders can be negociated with. Their death won't diminish the Dominion's fighting capacity. Etc, etc - you should know the rest.

Equating the Founders or any real world entity with the borg is a straw-man argument.
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Old May 2 2010, 08:25 PM   #193
Anwar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
The paradox could stop the collective once and for all.
Your whole argument hinges on this inane belief it WOULD have worked, when it's blatantly clear from later episodes it WOULDN'T (and in fact, the possibility of it failing should have been discussed in the episode).

Your opinion regarding the paradox means nothing by comparison to Picard/Data/crew/Starfleet's opinion.
Why? Because you know practically nothing regarding borg tech, as opposed to them.
I know plenty, and that they never would have allowed the program to disrupt more than one Cube. It was destined to fail.

What matters is that PICARD WAS CONVINCED THE PARADOX WILL WORK. He DECIDED TO SACRIFICE BILLIONS so that he can delude himself that he's always moral.
In his subjective forum, PICARD INTENDED TO CONDEMN TO DEATH BILLIONS, when he WAS CERTAIN HE COULD SAVE THEM ALL, Anwar.
And that no one ever considered that the program might fail or be ineffective is a failing of the episode for some forced "moral quandry". Picard SHOULDN'T have been so convinced, it was just bad writing. Nechavev shouldn't have been such a militant fool to think it was foolproof either.

That he freely chose not to use it is irrelevant. What matters is that thanks to them not doing so, billions were spared.
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Old May 2 2010, 08:40 PM   #194
Rojixus
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Whether or not the episode failed to measure up to your biased metric is irrelevant. Picard was assimilated by the Borg and therefore KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE BORG THAN YOU EVER WILL! Picard never doubted the virus' effectiveness, why do you? Picard thought he had a sure way to destroy the Borg, he was wrong not to use it.
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Old May 2 2010, 08:59 PM   #195
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Your opinion regarding the paradox means nothing by comparison to Picard/Data/crew/Starfleet's opinion.
Why? Because you know practically nothing regarding borg tech, as opposed to them.
I know plenty, and that they never would have allowed the program to disrupt more than one Cube. It was destined to fail.
You know plenty?
Then, by all means, do share some of your encyclopedic knowledge:

How can one generate effectively gravitational and antigravitational fields?
How can one generate subspace transmissions the borg use to link the drones into the hive mind?

Someone like you surely knows these trek tech rudiments.
And don't be afraid to go into details, Anwar.

If you don't even know this, you thinking you know anything of substance (beyond WILD, UNSUPPORTED SPECULATIONS) about tech as complex as the borg's is just ridiculous.

What matters is that PICARD WAS CONVINCED THE PARADOX WILL WORK. He DECIDED TO SACRIFICE BILLIONS so that he can delude himself that he's always moral.
In his subjective forum, PICARD INTENDED TO CONDEMN TO DEATH BILLIONS, when he WAS CERTAIN HE COULD SAVE THEM ALL, Anwar.
And that no one ever considered that the program might fail or be ineffective is a failing of the episode for some forced "moral quandry". Picard SHOULDN'T have been so convinced, it was just bad writing. Nechavev shouldn't have been such a militant fool to think it was foolproof either.
Bad writing? Maybe. But, Anwar, Picard - being a fictional character, created by the scenarists - IS this bad writing. If the script depicted him as a creep willing to sacrifice BILLIONS as long as he could fool himself that he fanatically followed his sacroant, rigid rules, THEN HE IS THIS CREEP.

It's time to get pass denial to acceptance, Anwar. Alternatively, you can continue making a fool of yourself on this board.
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