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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 26 2010, 01:05 AM   #166
Tulin
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Mysterion wrote: View Post
Yes. And Nechayev was correct. IMO, the blood of everyone killed by the Borg after that incident is (at least in part) on Picard's hands.
Agreed.


It's exactly the same as MooreRon did in BSG with Helo making THE EXACT SAME CHOICE not to destroy the cylons when he could have.

It's bad writing - you don't give your characters the power to do the ABSOLUTE BEST THING that will solve the entire galaxy's problem and then DON'T LET THEM DO IT.

In reality, Picard should have been ordered to do it ina hearbeat.

It's unrealistic and, again, very bad writing.
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Old April 26 2010, 01:20 AM   #167
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Moore did it twice, first with Bashir curing Odo and again in NuBSG with Helo not killing the Cylons because he didn't want to kill his wife in the process.

Picard, like I said, pretty much SAVED the Feds from a REAL Borg Invasion by not using the (doomed to failure) virus.
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Old April 26 2010, 02:32 AM   #168
Kelthaz
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Dark Journey wrote: View Post
No, Picard was not wrong. What he did was very much in keeping with everything we have come to know about Federation moral principles. The Federation follows an absolute code of morality that is black and white about what it sees as wrong and right. It would never sanction the murder of one innocent life to save even a hundred billion people. We may view his decision as silly from a practical point of view, but that is not how the Federation judges actions. It is Nechayev's comments that would be considered bizarre within the Federation.
That's what Picard thinks the Federation is, but it's never been portrayed that way.
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Old April 26 2010, 02:49 AM   #169
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Picard, like I said, pretty much SAVED the Feds from a REAL Borg Invasion by not using the (doomed to failure) virus.
You don't know if the virus was doomed to failure or not. You also don't know if the Borg already considered the Federation a viable threat or not. As I have told you before Anwar, THE BORG WILL NOT SEND ANY MORE CUBES THAN THEY NEED TO, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE SENT MORE THAN ONE CUBE IN STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT. Also, you keep repeating yourself, WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE MATTER, IF YOU HAVE NOTHING NEW TO ADD, STAY SILENT!
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Old April 26 2010, 03:03 AM   #170
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
You don't know if the virus was doomed to failure or not. You also don't know if the Borg already considered the Federation a viable threat or not. As I have told you before Anwar, THE BORG WILL NOT SEND ANY MORE CUBES THAN THEY NEED TO, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE SENT MORE THAN ONE CUBE IN STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT. Also, you keep repeating yourself, WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE MATTER, IF YOU HAVE NOTHING NEW TO ADD, STAY SILENT!
Why are you yelling and being rude? At least be right if you are going to do this. Your argument is completely illogical and is refuted by later canon. It is not logical to say "The borg don't send more vessels than they need to or else they would have." Clearly, we the viewers do not have the extra information of knowing what exactly the Borg's motives are with the Federation at every single juncture, but I think it is safe to say that if they wanted to truly trash the Federation, they could have.

It is made clear on at least two separate occurrences that the Borg clearly DO send more vessels then necessary when they want to. This happened in Hope and Fear as well as Dark Frontier. In Hope and Fear, "hundreds of cubes" were sent to assimilate 1 planet. In Dark Frontier, at least 4 Borg vessels including a Cube were sent to attack a planet of just over 100,000 lifeforms. Imagine what they could and would send to the Federation. This is more recent canon in our timeline as well as the Star Trek timeline, so I suggest you read/watch up on Borg history before making dramatic and incorrect proclamations about the Borg and then telling people to shut up.
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Old April 26 2010, 03:33 AM   #171
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

greenguy wrote: View Post
Rojixus wrote: View Post
You don't know if the virus was doomed to failure or not. You also don't know if the Borg already considered the Federation a viable threat or not. As I have told you before Anwar, THE BORG WILL NOT SEND ANY MORE CUBES THAN THEY NEED TO, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE SENT MORE THAN ONE CUBE IN STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT. Also, you keep repeating yourself, WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE MATTER, IF YOU HAVE NOTHING NEW TO ADD, STAY SILENT!
Why are you yelling and being rude? At least be right if you are going to do this. Your argument is completely illogical and is refuted by later canon. It is not logical to say "The borg don't send more vessels than they need to or else they would have." Clearly, we the viewers do not have the extra information of knowing what exactly the Borg's motives are with the Federation at every single juncture, but I think it is safe to say that if they wanted to truly trash the Federation, they could have.

It is made clear on at least two separate occurrences that the Borg clearly DO send more vessels then necessary when they want to. This happened in Hope and Fear as well as Dark Frontier. In Hope and Fear, "hundreds of cubes" were sent to assimilate 1 planet. In Dark Frontier, at least 4 Borg vessels including a Cube were sent to attack a planet of just over 100,000 lifeforms. Imagine what they could and would send to the Federation. This is more recent canon in our timeline as well as the Star Trek timeline, so I suggest you read/watch up on Borg history before making dramatic and incorrect proclamations about the Borg and then telling people to shut up.
Clearly you have not been on this thread long so I will ignore your suggestion. Secondly, this evidence does not help your friend's position at all. It doesn't matter if we are a credible threat to the Borg or not, if they want to send a fleet of cubes to end the Federation then they will do it, REGARDLESS IF WE ANTAGONIZE THEM OR NOT! Combine this with the fact that Picard and company was certain the virus would have worked and you have the only logical conclusion: PICARD SHOULD HAVE USED THE VIRUS! To not release the virus was moral cowardice on Picard's part. I suggest you read the entire thread before making any more rash judgments.
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Old April 26 2010, 04:59 AM   #172
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Starfleet also seemed to think the virus would work based on Nechayev's orders from Descent I. They also didn't believe that it's failure would bring the Borg's wrath based on those same orders.

But I forgot that Picard can do no wrong...
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Old April 26 2010, 05:14 AM   #173
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
greenguy wrote: View Post
Rojixus wrote: View Post
You don't know if the virus was doomed to failure or not. You also don't know if the Borg already considered the Federation a viable threat or not. As I have told you before Anwar, THE BORG WILL NOT SEND ANY MORE CUBES THAN THEY NEED TO, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE SENT MORE THAN ONE CUBE IN STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT. Also, you keep repeating yourself, WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE MATTER, IF YOU HAVE NOTHING NEW TO ADD, STAY SILENT!
Why are you yelling and being rude? At least be right if you are going to do this. Your argument is completely illogical and is refuted by later canon. It is not logical to say "The borg don't send more vessels than they need to or else they would have." Clearly, we the viewers do not have the extra information of knowing what exactly the Borg's motives are with the Federation at every single juncture, but I think it is safe to say that if they wanted to truly trash the Federation, they could have.

It is made clear on at least two separate occurrences that the Borg clearly DO send more vessels then necessary when they want to. This happened in Hope and Fear as well as Dark Frontier. In Hope and Fear, "hundreds of cubes" were sent to assimilate 1 planet. In Dark Frontier, at least 4 Borg vessels including a Cube were sent to attack a planet of just over 100,000 lifeforms. Imagine what they could and would send to the Federation. This is more recent canon in our timeline as well as the Star Trek timeline, so I suggest you read/watch up on Borg history before making dramatic and incorrect proclamations about the Borg and then telling people to shut up.
Clearly you have not been on this thread long so I will ignore your suggestion. Secondly, this evidence does not help your friend's position at all. It doesn't matter if we are a credible threat to the Borg or not, if they want to send a fleet of cubes to end the Federation then they will do it, REGARDLESS IF WE ANTAGONIZE THEM OR NOT! Combine this with the fact that Picard and company was certain the virus would have worked and you have the only logical conclusion: PICARD SHOULD HAVE USED THE VIRUS! To not release the virus was moral cowardice on Picard's part. I suggest you read the entire thread before making any more rash judgments.
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Old April 30 2010, 02:04 PM   #174
The Borg Queen
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

You know, this whole issue could have been avoided if Hugh took one look at the program and said something like: "This image is paradoxical and therefore irrelevant, the Borg will simply ignore it."
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Old May 1 2010, 01:06 AM   #175
brokenleg
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Vanyel wrote: View Post
Would the program have really worked?

The Borg must know pi, and they most likely stopped calculating it at some point.
Right......
I have to agree with Jean Luc.. plus Hugo was like 12
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Old May 1 2010, 01:39 AM   #176
Commander Rabbit
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
SchwEnt wrote: View Post
"The moral thing to do was not the *right* thing to do."
I disagree with that statement, on general principles.
So do I.
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Old May 1 2010, 11:53 AM   #177
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Commander Rabbit wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
SchwEnt wrote: View Post
"The moral thing to do was not the *right* thing to do."
I disagree with that statement, on general principles.
So do I.
So - what was the moral thing to do in "I, Borg" again?

Let uncounted BILLIONS die at the hands of the borg when you could stop this horror, all this just so that you can delude yourself that you made the "moral" choice?

Vanyel wrote: View Post
Would the program have really worked?

The Borg must know pi, and they most likely stopped calculating it at some point.
Vanyel, an irrational number is NOT a paradox. IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE.
You don't know much about this area of logic, do you?

Last edited by ProtoAvatar; May 1 2010 at 12:15 PM.
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Old May 1 2010, 10:30 PM   #178
Anwar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

The moral thing? NOT to use a weapon that likely won't work, and in the process NOT provoke the Borg into a REAL invasion that will DEFINITELY kill billions.
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Old May 1 2010, 11:02 PM   #179
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The moral thing? NOT to use a weapon that likely won't work, and in the process NOT provoke the Borg into a REAL invasion that will DEFINITELY kill billions.
I swear Anwar, you are more repetitive than a broken record. You keep saying that BUT WHAT IS YOUR PROOF? Picard should have done the right thing and released that virus. He and his entire crew believed the virus would have worked, so IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE VIRUS WOULD HAVE REALLY WORKED OR NOT! Secondly, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU "ANTAGONIZE" THE BORG OR NOT, IF THEY WANT TO SEND A THOUSAND CUBES TO ASSIMILATE THE FEDERATION, THEY WILL DO IT REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO TO THEM! Picard did a foolish thing when he let Hugh go. Once again, Picard displayed total moral cowardice.
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Old May 2 2010, 01:07 AM   #180
Anwar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
I swear Anwar, you are more repetitive than a broken record. You keep saying that BUT WHAT IS YOUR PROOF?
The Borg are clearly far more advanced than the Federation, and have assimilated countless species at least as advanced as them over millenia. To think NONE of them thought of a viral attack is pure idiocy, and the fact the Borg still exist are proof such attacks don't work. Also we saw that when Hugh's own "infection" spread the Borg simply cut off that Cube.

Picard should have done the right thing and released that virus. He and his entire crew believed the virus would have worked, so IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE VIRUS WOULD HAVE REALLY WORKED OR NOT!
Sure it would, at that point the Borg weren't that interested in the Alpha Quadrant otherwise they'd have kept attacking with more than one Cube. That they didn't showed they had more pressing concerns elsewhere (or just didn't care). By launching their virus, all the Feds would do it provoke them into caring and launching a REAL attack to wipe out the Feds once and for all.

Secondly, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU "ANTAGONIZE" THE BORG OR NOT, IF THEY WANT TO SEND A THOUSAND CUBES TO ASSIMILATE THE FEDERATION, THEY WILL DO IT REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO TO THEM! Picard did a foolish thing when he let Hugh go. Once again, Picard displayed total moral cowardice.
They won't want to send a 1000 Cubes until the targets make themselves worth it, and this virus would have done that. At least if they hold off on attacking it gives the Feds more time to develop better weapons and ships to fight with. By NOT provoking them you're giving yourself more time to prepare for when they WILL.
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