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Old April 25 2010, 02:38 AM   #46
Rush Limborg
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

^(chuckle)

Frankly, sir...if you cannot be bothered to cite your sources...why should I be bothered to cite them for you?

BTW...I have read those statements. I myself have taken part in many other discussions which Nerys was involved in of which you may be referring. The most notable, of course, being a thread on "Federation Foreign Policy". I recommend it.

Never once have I seen anything from the keyboard of Nerys Ghemor that could be simply written off as "envy". You must admit...considering the constant frustration of Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and the rest when confronting the Federation establishment...she does indeed have a point.
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Old April 25 2010, 10:25 AM   #47
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Among others, I recall a theory Nerys Ghemor supported - apparently, in order to reach its near-utopian state, humanity exterminated in the past all who thought differently, all oposition.
Yes - I can see the massive on-screen support for such thesis.


And, Rush Lindberg, DO read my posts: I did cite my sources - you just couldn't be bothered to read through them.
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Old April 25 2010, 07:34 PM   #48
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Among others, I recall a theory Nerys Ghemor supported - apparently, in order to reach its near-Utopian state, humanity exterminated in the past all who thought differently, all opposition.
I seem to remember Nerys Ghemor putting forward the idea that Earth may have taken dissenting voices within the greater society and "shipped them to the colonies," don't recall extermination being advocated.
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Old April 25 2010, 08:38 PM   #49
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Among others, I recall a theory Nerys Ghemor supported - apparently, in order to reach its near-Utopian state, humanity exterminated in the past all who thought differently, all opposition.
I seem to remember Nerys Ghemor putting forward the idea that Earth may have taken dissenting voices within the greater society and "shipped them to the colonies," don't recall extermination being advocated.
Link:
http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3942060&postcount=44

According to Nerys Ghemor, those who could saved themselves by escaping in colony ships. Those left on Earth received the full treatement - violence, suppression, the works. In the end, none remained (not in hiding, not anywhere) they were exterminated.
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Old April 25 2010, 10:17 PM   #50
Rush Limborg
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Well, let's see...

I will proceed to quote what she actually said--via the link you provided (thanks for that, BTW. ).

Observe:

The economic and ideological shift that occurred--the extreme uniformity we see in human thinking, aside from those who emigrated to breakaway colonies, suggests that those who held other viewpoints were...suppressed (by violence starting in the Post-Atomic Horror, or by force of law thereafter), or by extreme social pressure. Those who dissented, during this latter period, would have exiled themselves to colonies where they could operate outside the reach of the Federation.

...

As for envy? No, I do not envy Federation society. They have some nice things, but they can keep it to themselves. To claim tolerance towards aliens yet show intolerance towards dissenters in their own society--something doesn't add up, and I don't trust that....
To be frank...I see no actual flaw in this line of reasoning. Now...I have a decidedly less cynical view of 24th-century humanity than Nerys--i.e., I view the paradise of Earth as only rationally being brought about by a free, capitalist society, despite latter-day perversion by alleged "progressives"--however, I DO see potential validity in her argument. It is hardly envy; it is simple logic, based on premises drawn from what little information we do have on Trek-history.

Mooving along, she also says:

Their attitude towards the Bajorans at the beginning is very telling (though this shifts over time): they see them as backwards, superstitious bumpkins, and make it their express goal to make Bajor a Federation member--maybe not by force, but certainly to apply pressure in that direction, because it was strategic territory near Cardassia and they wanted it.

Now THAT shifted over time, and thank goodness. But that's definitely how they started out.
Interestingly enough, the UFP's attitude changes and reforms as the POVs of Sisko and Bashir change with experience. I think this reform is a promising indication of what's to come.... But again, Nerys's argument does hold water here. No envy, just cruel reality.

Trek humans claim morals but follow political expediency, at least by the 24th century. (Wasn't quite as bad in the 23rd.) They claim to uphold rights, freedoms, and tolerance, but use the Prime Directive as an excuse to stand by and watch entire worlds and people die or suffer oppression.

...Even when ASKED for help they often refuse. It's nowhere near as clearcut as you seem to think it is. I think "paternalistic" may be a more appropriate term than "imperialistic."
Sorry...she is absolutely correct here. Many times in Trek--especially in TNG, specific requests for help are turned down because the Prime Directive allegedly forbids it....

Interestingly enough, the PD was created to keep the UFP from "Playing God". And yet...the irony is, the authorities often make exceptions to it, simply to justify doing what suits present policy. (To wit...the PD is treated as a Living, Breathing Document.... Only our heros seem to want to treat it objectively.)
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Old April 25 2010, 10:20 PM   #51
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Rush Limborg

Do read what was written AFTER Nerys Ghemor's post before wasting my time here.
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Old April 26 2010, 04:19 PM   #52
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Gagarin wrote: View Post
After watching-through 80 percent of TNG, I had this striking thought:

Worf, having grown up AWAY from Klingons, only knowing ... really ... of his people through what he can study, read, etc at first... has sooooo high ideals, that I wonder if it's like a human trying to understand his culture by reading the Holy Bible and base their life, their understanding how things should be, all on a face-value reading of trying to replicate life as an Ancient-Near-East person. The problem would be this person exists in the 21st century and no one would have a clue what the Year Of Jubilee is, nor would he find The Temple, or the Ark Of The Convanent - or any Levitical Priests laying around.

I often wondered if your average, every-day, non-Starship commander Klingon, would look at Worf and say "What the hell are you talking about? You've read too many story books about us."

So, yes Klingons are hypocrits, because everyone is, but I wonder if Worf keeps trying to compare reality to an idealized existence that everyone else but him is in touch doesn't exist. Worf is a romantic, if there was one.

Also, as far as honor goes, and prisoners/no prisoners/not stabbing in back, etc... I wonder if part of what we experience is Klingon's changing views of humans/Federation. It could be that they were so thought down upon that they were not warriors, nor deserving or capable of honor, and were to be treated accordingly. They were devious and conniving. Humans were pests. Over the course of time this changed, somewhat.
I have the same problem with people who hold up Spock as a perfect example of a Vulcan when he's half human.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
I view the paradise of Earth as only rationally being brought about by a free, capitalist society, despite latter-day perversion by alleged "progressives"--however, I DO see potential validity in her argument.
Right, a free society only made possible with virtually unlimited land, energy and resources, where everyone's food, housing, medical and educational needs are met by the state.

It's a total fantasy universe, it has nothing to do with modern political or economic principles, including what you think of as capitalism or conservatism or anything else you'd like to imagine.
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Old April 26 2010, 09:13 PM   #53
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg

Do read what was written AFTER Nerys Ghemor's post before wasting my time here.


...Then why did you make it a point to provide a link to ONLY her comments--as if it would be self-explanitory, why you find them so detestable?
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Old April 26 2010, 09:18 PM   #54
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

FordSVT wrote: View Post
Right, a free society only made possible with virtually unlimited land, energy and resources, where everyone's food, housing, medical and educational needs are met by the state.

It's a total fantasy universe, it has nothing to do with modern political or economic principles, including what you think of as capitalism or conservatism or anything else you'd like to imagine.
(sigh) Other than the fact that I was just illustrating my disagreement with Nerys...and that to over-emphasize this line is to take the bloody thread even more off topic...

To be frank, I have yet to see a canonical--or even TrekLit--establishment that "everyone's food, housing, medical and educational needs are met by the state". I could be wrong--but until I am proven so, I stand by those comments.

But again, this is splitting hairs--and I re-state that that was simply where I disagreed with the analysis of my Cardassian friend.
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Old April 27 2010, 02:21 PM   #55
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
FordSVT wrote: View Post
Right, a free society only made possible with virtually unlimited land, energy and resources, where everyone's food, housing, medical and educational needs are met by the state.

It's a total fantasy universe, it has nothing to do with modern political or economic principles, including what you think of as capitalism or conservatism or anything else you'd like to imagine.
(sigh) Other than the fact that I was just illustrating my disagreement with Nerys...and that to over-emphasize this line is to take the bloody thread even more off topic...
If you don't want to discuss things, don't say them.

To be frank, I have yet to see a canonical--or even TrekLit--establishment that "everyone's food, housing, medical and educational needs are met by the state". I could be wrong--but until I am proven so, I stand by those comments.
I think an amalgamation of the available canon evidence would suggest that indeed, on core Federation worlds like Earth and Betazed at least, Federation citizens are given public schooling and have their medical needs provided for. Would you argue that corporations run their school and health care system or that they're for profit? It's been stated there is no poverty or hunger, I'm pretty sure it's not because they've found a way to guarantee 100% unemployment through raw capitalism. You really think society went in the totally opposite direction we're going today in a future with unlimited resources? You can build homes and apartments and power them for next to nothing given their level of technology.

Then again I'd argue that their entire political and particularly their economic system is different enough from ours based on the available evidence (again, because of their level of tech and a non-scarcity environment) that traditional labels like "socialism" and "capitalism" are a bit in error. They have a government system that seems like a mix of Republicanism and the Parliamentary system. They seem to have one economic system within the Federation for its citizens (this no money business Kirk and Picard go on about) while maintaining a way to interact with outside economies on small and large scales. They'd have to have an amalgamation of all kinds of economic ideas cherry picked in order for it to work.
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Old April 27 2010, 07:01 PM   #56
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

FordSVT wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
FordSVT wrote: View Post
Right, a free society only made possible with virtually unlimited land, energy and resources, where everyone's food, housing, medical and educational needs are met by the state.

It's a total fantasy universe, it has nothing to do with modern political or economic principles, including what you think of as capitalism or conservatism or anything else you'd like to imagine.
(sigh) Other than the fact that I was just illustrating my disagreement with Nerys...and that to over-emphasize this line is to take the bloody thread even more off topic...
If you don't want to discuss things, don't say them.
Again--I was just giving an example of the sole manner of disagreement--and why I feel somewhat more optimistic towards the UFP.

To be frank, I have yet to see a canonical--or even TrekLit--establishment that "everyone's food, housing, medical and educational needs are met by the state". I could be wrong--but until I am proven so, I stand by those comments.
I think an amalgamation of the available canon evidence would suggest that indeed, on core Federation worlds like Earth and Betazed at least, Federation citizens are given public schooling and have their medical needs provided for. Would you argue that corporations run their school and health care system or that they're for profit?
Something akin to that. I would argue that the profit motive would be a sufficient incentive for private companies to provide the highest possible quality at the lowest possible price.

It's been stated there is no poverty or hunger, I'm pretty sure it's not because they've found a way to guarantee 100% unemployment through raw capitalism. You really think society went in the totally opposite direction we're going today in a future with unlimited resources? You can build homes and apartments and power them for next to nothing given their level of technology.
Precisely! You really think the replicator was invented at the behest of the government? Of course not--but its provision, and the provison from many other technological breakthroughs, which resulted in practically unlimited resources--directly leads to such a high standard of living--and such ease in aquiring it--that the term "poverty" becomes meanigless.

Then again I'd argue that their entire political and particularly their economic system is different enough from ours based on the available evidence (again, because of their level of tech and a non-scarcity environment) that traditional labels like "socialism" and "capitalism" are a bit in error. They have a government system that seems like a mix of Republicanism and the Parliamentary system. They seem to have one economic system within the Federation for its citizens (this no money business Kirk and Picard go on about) while maintaining a way to interact with outside economies on small and large scales. They'd have to have an amalgamation of all kinds of economic ideas cherry picked in order for it to work.
I grant that--to a point. You see--capitalism is not simply an economic system. It is the only economic system presently or historically in existence that is completely compatible with the concept of inalienable, individual rights--life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness--and therefore, private property. All other systems in existence--fascism, socialism, corporatism, welfare statism, pure "democracy"--advocate the violation of the rights of some for the good of another.

Now, I do not deny that there may in fact be a future form of a free-market economy, which would make what we now call "capitalism" outdated. However, this system must respect the rights of the individual, and the concept of private property, or else prosperity is suppressed, immediately or through a gradual process.
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Old May 1 2010, 03:18 PM   #57
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
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That's because the Federation actually follows its moral code.
The alternative is not applying this moral code when it comes to others - aka betraying its morals. The prime directive streches the limit of its morality as it is.
If its moral code is to accept others' ways and beliefs, how is it following that code to impose someone else's ways and beliefs on others and expect them to follow UFP, or more often Earth, standards? Being accepting of others means you can't expect them to be just like you.

Also, while I think Ezri was spot on about the hypocrisy of the Klingons, I think she was wrong about one thing. She asks Worf if there has ever been a single Klingon Chancellor worthy of respect. I'd say there was at least one - Gorkon.
Technically, she asked Worf "Who was the last leader of the High Council that you respected?" Worf wasn't even alive during Gorkon's time....
It wouldn't matter if Worf was alive or not, the question doesn't require him to have been alive while the Chancellor he respects was in power.

How you're thinking the question works would make it impossible (for example) to be able to say who the last King of the UK I respected, since there hasn't been a King in my lifetime, only Queen Elizabeth II as reigning monarch.
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Old May 1 2010, 07:53 PM   #58
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

^Well, to be frank, that would be an absurd question to ask, if my point was to discuss current corruption in the British system.

Ezri was trying to hit home her point that the Empire had abandoned its Founding Principles (hmm...) by asking Worf to look at what the Empire had been like throughout his lifetime.

If it were as you said--that her question wasn't limited to his personal perspective during his lifetime--Ezri would therefore basically have implied that Klingon leaders have never, ever been honorable or un-corrupt. Again, going back to your analogy, it would be like my claiming that the British system has never not been corrupt.
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Old May 1 2010, 10:51 PM   #59
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

FordSVT wrote: View Post
I think an amalgamation of the available canon evidence would suggest that indeed, on core Federation worlds like Earth and Betazed at least, Federation citizens are given public schooling and have their medical needs provided for.
I believe the only teachers we have seen were volunteers: there was no mention of Keiko charging for school on DS9, and the teachers on the Enterprise were not part of her crew. We have seen many students being "home schooled", and others making reference to "school" but no indication of who runs it. You might infer that the schools are run by the government, but I think there is at least an equal amount of evidence that the schools are run by the citizens themselves, teachers being either volunteers or, if paid, paid by the parents of the students directly.
We have seen Starfleet providing medical care, but we have also seen doctors who were not part of Starfleet. We have no indication if they work for the government, for some private entity, or if they provide medical care as volunteers, simply because they are able to and see the need. If anything, that last has a bit more canon support than the others.
That their medical needs are provided for does not mean that they are provided for by the government.
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Old May 1 2010, 10:57 PM   #60
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
^Well, to be frank, that would be an absurd question to ask, if my point was to discuss current corruption in the British system.
I disagree. If you asked me "who was the last British Prime Minister you respected?", a legitimate answer would be "Churchill", even though the man has been dead since before I was born.
Ezri was trying to hit home her point that the Empire had abandoned its Founding Principles (hmm...) by asking Worf to look at what the Empire had been like throughout his lifetime.
Again, I disagree. I think she felt the corruption had begun long before Worf was born, and that while he might be able to call up historical examples of Chancellors he respected, none of them would be recent enough to refute the idea that the Empire had been dying for generations. Centuries, even.
Again, going back to your analogy, it would be like my claiming that the British system has never not been corrupt.
Not really: if the best I can do is Richard the Lionheart, then you have basically made your case that no recent king was any good.
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