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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old April 25 2010, 03:31 PM   #16
Forbin
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Re: Shuttlecraft

Also in WNMHGB, one of the crew explains to the castaways how the new ships can break the time barrier. Clearly the Big E had a different drive system than the Valiant, and presumably that new drive was the space/time warp.
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Old April 25 2010, 03:34 PM   #17
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Re: Shuttlecraft

And also - when Lokai stole that starbase shuttle. If it didn't have warp drive, where the hell did he think he was gonna go, and why did it take Starfleet so long to find him?
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Old April 25 2010, 04:30 PM   #18
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Re: Shuttlecraft

Forbin wrote: View Post
And also - when Lokai stole that starbase shuttle. If it didn't have warp drive, where the hell did he think he was gonna go, and why did it take Starfleet so long to find him?
There's nothing in the episode to say it didn't have warp capability. And what would be the point in stealing a vehicle without warp drive? You sure as hell wouldn't get very far. The shuttlecraft had been stolen three weeks earlier. Without warp he still would have been in the system and would never have gotten into deep space where the Enterprise intercepted him.
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Old April 25 2010, 05:51 PM   #19
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Re: Shuttlecraft

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Gagarin wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Keep in mind that for TOS that impulse engines have been implied to be capable of FTL. That's how the SS Valiant got out to edge of the galaxy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and how also the Enterprise got around when her warp drive was burnt out or damaged...
Wait, what? SS Valiant had warp drive. At least, they never said that it didn't have warp drive.
True, the dialogue only confirmed that the SS Valiant had Impulse drive but they were the engines that battled the magnetic space storm. Also, it was far enough back in time (200 years) that it may or may not have had warp drive since Zefram Cochrane would've been about 37 years old so it could go either way whether warp drive had been invented yet when the Valiant made it to the galactic barrier.

KIRK: This is the Captain speaking. The object we encountered is a ship's disaster recorder, apparently ejected from the S.S. Valiant two hundred years ago.
...
SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction.
KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough.
SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here...
Gagarin wrote: View Post
Also, there's room for the Enterprise to have remained at warp speeds after contact with the barrier and then having the crystals fail. After all, there's a fade to black and commercial break before the Captains Log...
The Enterprise could have been at warp for a bit after turning back but it didn't last long since Spock announced that they had burnt out the main engines prior to the Captain's Log entry.
Perhaps you cannot use warp drive in a magnetic storm, only impulse engines. Plenty of analogies in other Treks where they have to use impulse engines to get out of a situation.

Unless a Q picked up the ship and dropped it off near the rim, there's absolutely no way to get that far out on impulse engines.

Was it 200 years ago? Nearly 200 years ago? 170 years ago makes ZC 67 years old. And it still rounds to 200.
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Old April 25 2010, 06:25 PM   #20
Timo
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Re: Shuttlecraft

There's nothing in the episode to say it didn't have warp capability.
Quite true.

And what would be the point in stealing a vehicle without warp drive?
Considering how long-lived the two Cheronian clowns were, a sublight trip from star to star would be a perfectly viable maneuver for them, even if it took a few thousand years...

Was it 200 years ago? Nearly 200 years ago?
Kirk in the teaser says the ship has been missing for "over two centuries". Later he says the recorder marker they recovered was launched "two hundred years ago". That's the extent of it - but it doesn't seem to support the 170 year interpretation, as the "over" part is quite explicit. Probably we should be thinking in terms of 202 or 207 years or something like that...

On the issue of the Enterprise being within easy reach of Delta Vega after the misadventure, it could be chalked up to pure coincidence. Perhaps the galaxy is full of such automated outposts (not necessarily of Federation origin), especially at the rim, in support of an aggressive expansion program? Perhaps Kirk actually set out using Delta Vega as his "last call saloon", one of the many supply outposts that his ambitious expedition required?

Speculating further on that vein, Vega is a real star but nowhere near the outer regions of the Milky Way. Also, Vega is not a constellation, so Delta Vega should not denote the fourth brightest star in the constellation Vega. Perhaps it's just a codename? Kirk's expedition might have relied on the robotic outposts Alpha Vega, Beta Vega, Gamma Vega, Delta Vega and Epsilon Vega, all clustered near his "exit point" - and the barrier phenomenon might have spat him out within a few lightdays of the fourth of those, rather than within a few lightmonths of the second or a few lightminutes of the fifth.

If Delta Vega is a code name (or a trade name, like Dytallix B of TNG fame), then the Delta Vega outpost of STXI becomes all the more acceptable: neither the TOS nor the STXI installation is in any way related to the star Vega, and it just so happens that the Starfleet of TOS assigned that code name to a different outpost from the Starfleet of STXI.

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Old April 25 2010, 06:46 PM   #21
blssdwlf
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Re: Shuttlecraft

Gagarin wrote: View Post
Perhaps you cannot use warp drive in a magnetic storm, only impulse engines. Plenty of analogies in other Treks where they have to use impulse engines to get out of a situation.
As far as TOS goes, I don't recall an instance where Kirk orders the ship to slow to impulse while in any storm. Even in an Ion Storm, he calls for Warp. But going back to the dialogue, Kirk doesn't say "If only they could use their warp drive in that storm" or something like that.

Gagarin wrote: View Post
Unless a Q picked up the ship and dropped it off near the rim, there's absolutely no way to get that far out on impulse engines.
That is only if you base your belief that impulse engines are sublight only. Perhaps in TNG and onwards it is, but that's another series and another production staff

(Although IIRC, TNG goofed in Best of Both Worlds pt2 and had the E-D at impulse cross a distance in a timeframe too short to be sublight...)

Gagarin wrote: View Post
Was it 200 years ago? Nearly 200 years ago? 170 years ago makes ZC 67 years old. And it still rounds to 200.
I'm afraid the dialogue supports 200 (or more years) not 170.
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Old April 25 2010, 07:03 PM   #22
Timo
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Re: Shuttlecraft

(Although IIRC, TNG goofed in Best of Both Worlds pt2 and had the E-D at impulse cross a distance in a timeframe too short to be sublight...)
If they traveled at high sublight, Einstein would come aboard and do his usual party tricks; a trip of, say, three lighthours would probably take 45 minutes or so.

The exact dialogue in the episode says that the Borg have passed Mars and the E-D slows to sublight with "33 minutes, 14 seconds to intercept". We don't know where the E-D slows to sublight, though, so we don't even have to call in Einstein to "un-goof" that reference. (Mars is somewhere between 0.4 and 2.6 AU from Earth, depending on the orbital positions, thus less than 33 lightminutes away in any case.)

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Old April 26 2010, 12:21 AM   #23
Gagarin
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Re: Shuttlecraft

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Gagarin wrote: View Post
Perhaps you cannot use warp drive in a magnetic storm, only impulse engines. Plenty of analogies in other Treks where they have to use impulse engines to get out of a situation.
As far as TOS goes, I don't recall an instance where Kirk orders the ship to slow to impulse while in any storm. Even in an Ion Storm, he calls for Warp. But going back to the dialogue, Kirk doesn't say "If only they could use their warp drive in that storm" or something like that.
It would take some imagination, but it's whithin Trek's logic that warp engines would be unsafe in some circumstances. Warp drive whithin the 23rd century's Sol system was a 'risk'.

Even in early TOS TPTB understood the impusle engines were not able to get the ship to these fantastic places, that was why they invented the space-warp 'fantastic power' engines.

Impulse engines were also used as safe backup, when the fancy warp drive wasn't working. Spock orders hyperdrive (warp drive) trying to leave Talos IV, it doesn't respond, he says switch to rockets, we're blasting out of here (impulse), also to no effect. Kirk orders 'impulse power, too' when trying to shake Balok's pilot vessel.

Basically, it's not that hard using Trek logic to think that if the main engines aren't working for whatever reason, that you could usually count on the good ol' impulse engines. A magnetic storm may have taken the old style warp engines off line, Kirk would know that, and he'd know that the impusle engines were the Valient's only hope.


Gagarin wrote: View Post
Unless a Q picked up the ship and dropped it off near the rim, there's absolutely no way to get that far out on impulse engines.

That is only if you base your belief that impulse engines are sublight only. Perhaps in TNG and onwards it is, but that's another series and another production staff

(Although IIRC, TNG goofed in Best of Both Worlds pt2 and had the E-D at impulse cross a distance in a timeframe too short to be sublight...)
Okay, well to keep in Where No Man Has Gone Before, if it would take Enterprise to reach "Earth bases" (presumably the closest ones, their last stops) YEARS under impulse power, which were only DAYS away using warp drive, then how long would it take the Valiant to get from where THEY started (Earth? Alpha Centari?) to the galactic edge? Decades? 100 years? 1,000 years?

Impusle power is slow. Lightspeed is slow. A lightspeed+plus capable impusle power still isn't good enough for where they are. Even if impulse engines can do 1.5 times the speed of light, that's not very fast given the distance.

SS Valiant needs warp drive.
I'm afraid the dialogue supports 200 (or more years) not 170.
I'll concede that, if that's what the dialogue says.
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Old April 26 2010, 01:35 AM   #24
blssdwlf
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Re: Shuttlecraft

Timo wrote: View Post
(Although IIRC, TNG goofed in Best of Both Worlds pt2 and had the E-D at impulse cross a distance in a timeframe too short to be sublight...)
If they traveled at high sublight, Einstein would come aboard and do his usual party tricks; a trip of, say, three lighthours would probably take 45 minutes or so.

The exact dialogue in the episode says that the Borg have passed Mars and the E-D slows to sublight with "33 minutes, 14 seconds to intercept". We don't know where the E-D slows to sublight, though, so we don't even have to call in Einstein to "un-goof" that reference. (Mars is somewhere between 0.4 and 2.6 AU from Earth, depending on the orbital positions, thus less than 33 lightminutes away in any case.)

Timo Saloniemi
IIRC, E-D was next to Jupiter (or was it Saturn?) when the Borg were just arriving at Earth. I remember when I ran the numbers a long time ago even with the planets closest to each other it would've been FTL...
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Old April 26 2010, 02:19 AM   #25
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Re: Shuttlecraft

Gagarin wrote: View Post
SS Valiant needs warp drive.
I think if we went by TNG standards, yes. But, TOS it could be argued that they operated by a different set of rules

However, it's more like SS Valiant needs a FTL drive, IMHO. It need not be warp as we know it and there is evidence in TOS to point to Impulse able to do just that. Even at a mighty slow 8c, the SS Valiant could've made the trip from Earth to the edge (going "up" on the galactic plane*) in a leisurely 32 years. There is probably a good reason that there were automated stations provisioned ahead of their trip

*Back then, the thickness of the galaxy was 1/2 of what I believe that has been revised today...
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Old April 26 2010, 03:11 AM   #26
Gagarin
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Re: Shuttlecraft

Forbin wrote: View Post
Also in WNMHGB, one of the crew explains to the castaways how the new ships can break the time barrier. Clearly the Big E had a different drive system than the Valiant, and presumably that new drive was the space/time warp.
Actually, that was in The Cage.
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Old April 26 2010, 04:43 AM   #27
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Re: Shuttlecraft

In TNG episode "The Battle" how long did Picard say he and the remaining crew of the Stargazer were adrift after abandoning the ship?
Does anybody remember his exact words?

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Old April 26 2010, 06:46 AM   #28
Gagarin
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Re: Shuttlecraft

Timo wrote: View Post
Kirk in the teaser says the ship has been missing for "over two centuries". Later he says the recorder marker they recovered was launched "two hundred years ago". That's the extent of it - but it doesn't seem to support the 170 year interpretation, as the "over" part is quite explicit. Probably we should be thinking in terms of 202 or 207 years or something like that...
Well, we know they still hadn't gotten anywhere close to knowing when their show was happening. But...

'Over two centuries' ...
Century means 100 years, but also epochs of time.

If it went missing in 2065, stayed missing through 2100's, and then appeared again in 2260, that's a mystery "spanning 3 centurys" of 'history', but less than 200 years, or 2 centuries, of calendar time. So I think colloqueally he'd say over 2 centuries since he knew it was lost in the 21st and now it's the 23rd. And if it went missing 170-199 years ago, I'd still say 200 years ago, and I may have said 'for over 2 centuries' because of the funnyness of how we like to group centuries not just as units of measure, but more like check-marks of history. The SS Valient's mystery spanned over 2 centuries.

And blah.
We can re-master it again and just find Kirk saying 'almost' somewhere, and re-dub it.
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Old April 26 2010, 07:54 AM   #29
Timo
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Re: Shuttlecraft

Warp drive whithin the 23rd century's Sol system was a 'risk'.
Only in a single case (ST:TMP), with untested engines. Kirk had absolutely no qualms about using extreme warp at the very heart of the Sol system in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" or ST:TVH.

In TNG episode "The Battle" how long did Picard say he and the remaining crew of the Stargazer were adrift after abandoning the ship?
Does anybody remember his exact words?
www.chakoteya.net does... Picard said they "limped" for "weeks", which may mean traveling at warp speed or at impulse speed, possibly on malfunctioning engines, but probably does not equate "drifting" without any propulsion whatsoever. And after those weeks of limping, they were "picked up" instead of reaching some safe haven by themselves.

Century means 100 years, but also epochs of time.
True enough. Unfortunately, Kirk had this pointy-eared imp hovering over his shoulder throughout the episode, with an annoying habit of correcting inaccuracies in the use of language, especially when it came to numbers...

I'd rather accept 200+ than attempt to redate the Valiant. We already have a movie showing that Earth got warp in 2063, and other evidence to show that "Where No Man" might have taken place as late as 2266. It doesn't sound unreasonable that Earth would have launched missions to the ends of the universe right after obtaining this warp drive thing - why hesitate, when it's obvious that warp works, that everybody else has warp, and that any pretense of an organized "space program" would only slow down Earth's necessary expansion into what little space was left?

The interesting thing here is that not only did the Valiant launch more than 200 years before the episode, she also disappeared 200 years before the episode. Kirk doesn't think the ship went quite that far before disappearing, because he considers it "Impossible!" that any Earth ship would be that far. Nor do records apparently show that the ship would have gone missing anywhere near where she was eventually found.

The episode basically implies, then, that the magnetic storm that took the Valiant off course took her really far off course, perhaps propelling her across hundreds of lightyears at high speeds. So, warp propulsion is not dictated by the episode but is a reasonable assumption considering other, later evidence; and warp performance need not match the ship's eventual journey considering evidence of external propulsive influences.

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Old April 26 2010, 03:36 PM   #30
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Re: Shuttlecraft

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
And also - when Lokai stole that starbase shuttle. If it didn't have warp drive, where the hell did he think he was gonna go, and why did it take Starfleet so long to find him?
There's nothing in the episode to say it didn't have warp capability. And what would be the point in stealing a vehicle without warp drive? You sure as hell wouldn't get very far. The shuttlecraft had been stolen three weeks earlier. Without warp he still would have been in the system and would never have gotten into deep space where the Enterprise intercepted him.
That... was my point.
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