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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 22 2010, 09:38 PM   #121
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
As for the borg - Data/Geordi know in detail the Federation findings regarding borg technology (gathered in 'Regeneration', 'Q, who', 'Best of both worlds', 'I, Borg') - including, but not limited to sensor scans, borg implants analysis, Data/Locutus having access to the borg hive mind, etc.
Is this knowledge complete? No
Is this knowledge FAR more detailed and complete than the ridiculous superficial knowledge we have of borg tech? Yes
And yet they didn't know about the Borg being able to cut off drones that have been infected with some type of virus like the poster above mentions.
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Old April 22 2010, 09:56 PM   #122
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

The mere fact that it is possible to 'recover' a Borg (i.e. remove it from the Collective and return it to being an individual, such as Seven of Nine) is all the proof I need: Genocide against the Borg is no different than genocide against any living race. If assimilation were absolutely irrecoverable, then there would be less of a problem with wiping out the Borg. But this is clearly not the case.

And even if the Borg don't respect the rules of war, that doesn't mean the Federation shouldn't.
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Old April 22 2010, 10:04 PM   #123
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
"Descent" made it clear their invasive program wouldn't work. Thus if anything Picard was right for not doing it because doing so would've just provoke the Borg into a REAL invasion mode and doomed the Federation.
The borg were ALREADY in invasion mode against the Federation.

You see - one can't be sure that the klingons/romulans/dominion will start a war.
But one can be absolutely sure that, once the borg marked you for assimilation, they WILL come for you.

Why?
Because the borg hive mind doesn't have a true free will - it just obeys its impulses - that blind 'will to conquer', to assimilate - , which makes its actions largely predictable.
The borg coming for the Federation was as certain as the sun rising next morning. Anyone who thought otherwise were just deluding themselves - and showing poor medium/long-term thinking/planning skills.

Why didn't the borg already came in masse to assimilate the federation?

Because Starfleet stopped them in 'Best of both worlds'? RIDICULOUS! The borg have HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of cubes (the number usen in 'Scorpion' is actually MILLIONS of cubes; I'm being conservative)! What happened in 'BOBW' barely qualifies as a skirmish for the borg.

Guinan, in 'Q, who', explained why the borg didn't already come - the collective doesn't do anything hurriedly; it always takes its time.
The cube in 'BOBW' and 'First contact' were on reconnaissance missions. By 'Dark frontier' the Queen was planning a somewhat larger attack - let's say, 1000 cubes (a smallish force by borg standards).
Tell me - what chance would Starfleet - and all the BILLIONS who live in the federation - have against 1000 cubes?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
As for the borg - Data/Geordi know in detail the Federation findings regarding borg technology (gathered in 'Regeneration', 'Q, who', 'Best of both worlds', 'I, Borg') - including, but not limited to sensor scans, borg implants analysis, Data/Locutus having access to the borg hive mind, etc.
Is this knowledge complete? No
Is this knowledge FAR more detailed and complete than the ridiculous superficial knowledge we have of borg tech? Yes
And yet they didn't know about the Borg being able to cut off drones that have been infected with some type of virus like the poster above mentions.
Who said the borg will be able to counter the logic paradox by separating infected drones?
Who said Picard&co didn't knew about this borg feature?

Perhaps Picard&co were so jaded when it came to the individuality program because they knew about this borg feature (or others along the same line), just as they knew it would be effective in stopping the individuality attack.

In any case, in their attitude one can clearly see that they think the individuality attack has very low chances of success (unlike the logic paradox). And they were right in this regard.

Last edited by ProtoAvatar; April 22 2010 at 10:33 PM.
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Old April 22 2010, 10:19 PM   #124
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The mere fact that it is possible to 'recover' a Borg (i.e. remove it from the Collective and return it to being an individual, such as Seven of Nine) is all the proof I need: Genocide against the Borg is no different than genocide against any living race. If assimilation were absolutely irrecoverable, then there would be less of a problem with wiping out the Borg. But this is clearly not the case.

And even if the Borg don't respect the rules of war, that doesn't mean the Federation shouldn't.
Picard respected the rules of was?
Picard condemned UNCOUNTED BILLIONS to death and assimilation! This was not merely probable! This was a certainty!
You call that respecting the rules of war? Refusing to exterminate an enemy army (there are NO civilians among the borg, NO non-combatants) on a genocidal mission, condemning its victims (your natural allies) to death?

As for trying to save the drones - theoretically, that's possible. Practically, it's impossible.
The borg military tech and technology in general is vastly more advanced than the Federation's.
Trying to save the drones would be suicide - facing the borg is almost suicide even when you're not slowed down by such impossible tasks.

And another point - in 'I, Borg', Picard made the decision NOT to use the paradox because it would mean using Hugh and dismantling the borg hive mind (Hugh's "culture'). The episode was actually ambiguous about the drones being killed or merely made individuals when when the hive mind was shut down.

Last edited by ProtoAvatar; April 22 2010 at 10:37 PM.
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Old April 23 2010, 12:01 AM   #125
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

The Borg weren't in invasion mode, if they were then they'd have sent a real Borg armada to Earth in BOBW and kept at it later. They were in "Send one Cube down to investigate these fringe dudes" mode, "Scout" mode.

That they NEVER came in force shows they never considered the Alpha Quadranters a real invasion-worthy part of the Galaxy.

Unleashing their doomed-from-inception viral program on the Borg would've just made the Borg LAUNCH a real invasion.

Picard condemned nobody, you're just too much of a warmonger to think otherwise. You don't provoke a vastly superior enemy to move against you, you leave them be and let them just pass by and ignore you like the fringer you are.
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Old April 23 2010, 02:53 AM   #126
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

a man can provide a nice cushy lifestyle by making meth, taking care of them , by being "practical" or he could do the "stupid " right thing by getting a job and taking the chance his family could go hungry . but the ends justify the means , right?
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Old April 23 2010, 07:23 AM   #127
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
As Picard later said, "The moral thing to do was not the *right* thing to do."
And how!

As for Beverly, she didn't seem to be speaking so much in character as just essentially offering an opposing anti-genocide opinion.
After all, in BOBW she was devising a plan to use destructive nanites against the Borg, which could have decimated the collective as much as the invasive program strategy.

I think we can safely assume at this point that the Borg can shut of ships with "diseases", or virus computer infections, etc. In this case, Picard's "genocidal" plan wouldn't have worked and may have actually "pissed off" the Borg...which would have made things WORSE. So taking into consideration that there was no guarantee the plan would work, Picard did the right thing. As we saw later this had other repercussions with Hugh and Lore on an isolated ship (further reinforcing the idea the Borg can shut off individual ships from the collective), but blame Picard for the continued existence of the threat? I don't think so.

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Old April 23 2010, 08:16 AM   #128
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Anwar:

You merely repeated yourself. I already answered in detail in my previous post. Read it.

torius22:

Your post is a VERY transparent straw-man argument.

RAMA:

About the borg being 'pissed off':

The borg had already targeted humanity for assimilation before 'I, Borg'.
This means that they would have come with certainty to assimilate the Federation with or without 'provocation'.

'Provocking' the borg, at most, would shorten the time after which they will come.
And what is the only reason for which Starfllet should avoid provocking the borg? In order to buy time.
For what? In order to make a weapon that is effective against the borg. Picard HAD this weapon - a weapon with better chances of success than anyone thought possible.
Not using this weapon is suicide - it equates to waiting until the borg come to assimilate everything because one doesn't want to 'provocke' them.

About the paradox vs the individuality attacks:


The paradox virus and the individuality attack are VERY different weapons.

Picard&crew were certain that the paradox attack will work (watch 'I, Borg' - the intent of the writers was to make the paradox attack working a certainty).

As fot the individuality sense, from the crew's reactions (instead of being extatic - 'Captain, you're a genius!' - they were jaded - 'Let's use it - we have nothing to lose') this attack had a very low chance of success.

The fact that the borg security measures were able to deal with the individuality attack says NOTHING about their performance against the paradox program.


Picard's decision in 'I, Borg' was immoral - he chose the 'greater evil', by far, he stained his hands red with the blood of BILLIONS, by allowing such an unimaginable horror of death and suffering to continnue, when he had a chance of stooping it - and strategically idiotic.
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Old April 23 2010, 08:22 AM   #129
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

First of all, the Borg cannot be pissed off. Second, if the Borg could have easily neutralized the virus, they would not have viewed the Federation as a credible threat. Therefore, they wouldn't have sent out an armada of cubes, at worst they would have sent one cube. The Borg don't want to expend any resources they don't have to, they only do what is sufficient, otherwise they would have sent an armada of cubes the first time. Picard was wrong not to release the virus. Even if it didn't work, it was still better than doing nothing, and if it did work, the Borg will no longer victimize the galaxy. And as always, THE LAWS OF WAR DO NOT APPLY TO THE BORG! IF YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO TAKE OUT THE GREATEST SCOURGE IN GALACTIC HISTORY, YOU HAD DAMN WELL BETTER TAKE IT! IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT! IT IS IMPRACTICAL TO SAVE EVERY ASSIMILATED BEING! IT IS BETTER TO WIPE OUT THE BORG AND SAVE TRILLIONS OF LIVES IN BOTH THE PRESENT AND COUNTLESS NUMBERS IN THE FUTURE THAN TO RISK TRYING TO LIBERATE EVERY. INDIVIDUAL. DRONE. YOU ARE NAIVE AND FOOLISH TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE!
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Old April 23 2010, 09:28 AM   #130
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
First of all, the Borg cannot be pissed off. Second, if the Borg could have easily neutralized the virus, they would not have viewed the Federation as a credible threat. Therefore, they wouldn't have sent out an armada of cubes, at worst they would have sent one cube. The Borg don't want to expend any resources they don't have to, they only do what is sufficient, otherwise they would have sent an armada of cubes the first time. Picard was wrong not to release the virus. Even if it didn't work, it was still better than doing nothing, and if it did work, the Borg will no longer victimize the galaxy. And as always, THE LAWS OF WAR DO NOT APPLY TO THE BORG! IF YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO TAKE OUT THE GREATEST SCOURGE IN GALACTIC HISTORY, YOU HAD DAMN WELL BETTER TAKE IT! IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT! IT IS IMPRACTICAL TO SAVE EVERY ASSIMILATED BEING! IT IS BETTER TO WIPE OUT THE BORG AND SAVE TRILLIONS OF LIVES IN BOTH THE PRESENT AND COUNTLESS NUMBERS IN THE FUTURE THAN TO RISK TRYING TO LIBERATE EVERY. INDIVIDUAL. DRONE. YOU ARE NAIVE AND FOOLISH TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE!
I don't know, the BORG QUEEN sure looked pissed to me in FC! I did put it in quotation marks however, so I meant whatever equivalent of "pissed" the Borg can muster..which would probably be not one or two ships, but a whole battle group that couldn't be defeated.

The Borg are hardly an elemental force, are you saying they can't change or evolve? There's even a recent episode of Dr Who where the Dr decides against killing a whole species because he knows they will eventually evolve into a peaceful race. Who are you to decide that they should all not exist, how is that moral? Sure the UFP was in conflict but there certainly still is LAW, and if you kill a whole species its immoral. Add to that there is proven fact that assimilated beings can be returned to normal then you make the genocide argument even more shaky. Picard HAD that proven fact in Hugh and he made the correct decision. This argument was only further buttressed by Voyager...who recovered many former Borg.

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Old April 23 2010, 09:41 AM   #131
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Anwar:



Picard's decision in 'I, Borg' was immoral - he chose the 'greater evil', by far, he stained his hands red with the blood of BILLIONS, by allowing such an unimaginable horror of death and suffering to continnue, when he had a chance of stooping it - and strategically idiotic.
I'm glad you can make so measured a choice. However the fact remains, there is no direct evidence the Borg would have been stopped in I, Borg, in fact there is evidence AGAINST this possibility, therefore there is no reason to place the resulting deaths on Picard.

What if Starfleet or the Alpha Quadrant finds a better way to combat the Borg on a more even keel? What if there is a war that kills millions on both sides, BUT the resulting peace allows both billions of former Borg drones AND Alpha Quad beings to live?

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Old April 23 2010, 10:50 AM   #132
Anwar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Anwar:

You merely repeated yourself. I already answered in detail in my previous post. Read it.
I don't have to read it, because you're wrong. Bottom line, the viral program would never have worked, and simply doomed the Federation. Picard was in the right all along. I'm not going to say anything different, deal with it.
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Old April 23 2010, 02:54 PM   #133
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

RAMA wrote: View Post
Rojixus wrote: View Post
First of all, the Borg cannot be pissed off. Second, if the Borg could have easily neutralized the virus, they would not have viewed the Federation as a credible threat. Therefore, they wouldn't have sent out an armada of cubes, at worst they would have sent one cube. The Borg don't want to expend any resources they don't have to, they only do what is sufficient, otherwise they would have sent an armada of cubes the first time. Picard was wrong not to release the virus. Even if it didn't work, it was still better than doing nothing, and if it did work, the Borg will no longer victimize the galaxy. And as always, THE LAWS OF WAR DO NOT APPLY TO THE BORG! IF YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO TAKE OUT THE GREATEST SCOURGE IN GALACTIC HISTORY, YOU HAD DAMN WELL BETTER TAKE IT! IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT! IT IS IMPRACTICAL TO SAVE EVERY ASSIMILATED BEING! IT IS BETTER TO WIPE OUT THE BORG AND SAVE TRILLIONS OF LIVES IN BOTH THE PRESENT AND COUNTLESS NUMBERS IN THE FUTURE THAN TO RISK TRYING TO LIBERATE EVERY. INDIVIDUAL. DRONE. YOU ARE NAIVE AND FOOLISH TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE!
I don't know, the BORG QUEEN sure looked pissed to me in FC! I did put it in quotation marks however, so I meant whatever equivalent of "pissed" the Borg can muster..which would probably be not one or two ships, but a whole battle group that couldn't be defeated.

The Borg are hardly an elemental force, are you saying they can't change or evolve? There's even a recent episode of Dr Who where the Dr decides against killing a whole species because he knows they will eventually evolve into a peaceful race. Who are you to decide that they should all not exist, how is that moral? Sure the UFP was in conflict but there certainly still is LAW, and if you kill a whole species its immoral. Add to that there is proven fact that assimilated beings can be returned to normal then you make the genocide argument even more shaky. Picard HAD that proven fact in Hugh and he made the correct decision. This argument was only further buttressed by Voyager...who recovered many former Borg.

RAMA
First of all, I am saying the Borg Collective as a whole cannot change and will never evolve. You can never change the basic fact that the Borg take people against their will and changes them into mindless drones. The Borg are a type of evil that must be destroyed. So long as one drone remains, it can begin the Collective anew. THE BORG WILL NEVER EVOLVE! Secondly, YOU CAN'T USE AN EXAMPLE FROM SOME OTHER SHOW TO PROVE YOUR POINT. IS IT IMMORAL TO KILL A VIRUS?

Also, you apparently did not read my entire post. I said it was practically impossible and not worth the risk to liberate every drone from the collective. It is time for you to realize the Borg are a despicable force of nature that must be destroyed to the last drone. Perhaps you would change your opinion if you were assimilated?
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Old April 23 2010, 02:58 PM   #134
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rojixus wrote: View Post
THE LAWS OF WAR DO NOT APPLY TO THE BORG!
But as I said, they DO apply to the Federation. Just because one side might not obey those laws doesn't absolve the other side of its share of the responsibility.
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Old April 23 2010, 02:59 PM   #135
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Anwar:

You merely repeated yourself. I already answered in detail in my previous post. Read it.
I don't have to read it, because you're wrong. Bottom line, the viral program would never have worked, and simply doomed the Federation. Picard was in the right all along. I'm not going to say anything different, deal with it.
No sir, YOU are wrong. Bottom line: the virus could have worked and might have saved the galaxy from Borg Tyranny. Picard was wrong and stupid not to do everything in his power to destroy the Borg. I'm not going to say anything different, DEAL WITH IT!
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