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Old April 22 2010, 07:08 AM   #196
Turtletrekker
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

...the fact that SHIELD was formed in the 1950s...
Actually, it was very recently revealed tht SHIELD was formed circa 2620 BC by Imotep (sp?) in order to stave off a Brood invasion of ancient Egypt and has existed ever since. Other historical members of SHIELD include Leonardo DaVinci and Galileo Galilei.
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Last edited by Turtletrekker; April 22 2010 at 07:53 AM.
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Old April 22 2010, 07:52 AM   #197
Thespeckledkiwi
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Tell me again why is this an issue? I really want to know?

Of all the things to care about, this should be the last on the list of worries.
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Old April 22 2010, 08:19 AM   #198
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Thespeckledkiwi wrote: View Post
Tell me again why is this an issue? I really want to know?

Of all the things to care about, this should be the last on the list of worries.
With Heimdall, it's not really an issue because he's not really a prominent character.

It is my view, however, that the, purely hypothetical, casting of someone like Will Smith as Captain America or Superman or Zoe Saldana as Wonder Woman would be a mistake for the following reasons.

1) It is patronising to black people. It merely says we can't think of any existing black superheroes that anyone would pay to watch a movie about so we'll just cast a black actor who is already popular against type as a character that's already popular too.

2) Such casting would be the result of various Hollywood producers assuming they're being "progressive" and "colour blind" with this casting. This would be a false assumption.

3) Comic book characters are created by a writer and an artist. If an artist chooses to depict a character as white then it is disrespectful to that artist to overrule and ignore him.

4) I object to the assumption that being black is an intrinsic part of a black character's story but the same rule cannot be applied to white characters who are generic and interchangeable.
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Old April 22 2010, 08:29 AM   #199
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

1) Not really. We've incorporated many 'black' characters into comics. For Captain America, it could make sense if they blended Bradley's character with Captain America (though for different reasons).

2) Or they are looking for the best actor/actress.

3) Back in the 20s-50s when racism was extremely prevalent and that black or even minority characters weren't thought of due to not being able to sell. Seriously at that time, who would want to sell a black Captain America, the symbol of America? Those artists, lots of them are dead by now as well.

4) Because they are? Because they are not a minority?
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Old April 22 2010, 09:15 AM   #200
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Thespeckledkiwi wrote: View Post
1) Not really. We've incorporated many 'black' characters into comics. For Captain America, it could make sense if they blended Bradley's character with Captain America (though for different reasons).
I'm not arguing that there aren't any such characters - Luke Cage seems to be the obvious choice - only that the people who choose what characters to make movies about don't seem to realise they exist.

2) Or they are looking for the best actor/actress.
Hardly.

3) Back in the 20s-50s when racism was extremely prevalent and that black or even minority characters weren't thought of due to not being able to sell. Seriously at that time, who would want to sell a black Captain America, the symbol of America? Those artists, lots of them are dead by now as well.
Yes, because disrespecting the dead is SO much better.

There is also a reason why we use the term "minority" here. Why shouldn't the majority be represented ?

4) Because they are? Because they are not a minority?
So ? Not being of a minority is just as much a part of a person's background as being part of one is.

White people are just as diverse and unique as anyone else. Any suggestion otherwise is racist.
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Old April 22 2010, 09:25 AM   #201
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

^ Tell that to whoever thought the statue depicting the four 9/11 white firefighters should be made into a multicultural statue. Or when Detroit was named the most diverse city in America for being 80% black.
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Old April 22 2010, 09:36 AM   #202
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

^Yet, curiously, we have a number of channels on satellite over here that feature African-made movies exclusively.

For some bizarre reason, the cast of Nigeria's latest blockbuster isn't full of Asians and Latinos.
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Old April 22 2010, 01:08 PM   #203
Thespeckledkiwi
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Hermiod wrote: View Post
^Yet, curiously, we have a number of channels on satellite over here that feature African-made movies exclusively.

For some bizarre reason, the cast of Nigeria's latest blockbuster isn't full of Asians and Latinos.
Wha? Maybe it's because Nigeria can't find those.

Plus does Nigeria sell the movie worldwide?
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Old April 22 2010, 01:17 PM   #204
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Hermiod wrote: View Post
Thespeckledkiwi wrote: View Post
1) Not really. We've incorporated many 'black' characters into comics. For Captain America, it could make sense if they blended Bradley's character with Captain America (though for different reasons).
I'm not arguing that there aren't any such characters - Luke Cage seems to be the obvious choice - only that the people who choose what characters to make movies about don't seem to realise they exist.
That's not true at all. Storm was included in the X-Men when relatively speaking she's a newer character in that universe. Or the fact that maybe they know they can't market those movies yet.

Look at Nick Fury. They went with the Ultimate Nick Fury. so they did know he existed.
2) Or they are looking for the best actor/actress.
Hardly.
In your opinion.

3) Back in the 20s-50s when racism was extremely prevalent and that black or even minority characters weren't thought of due to not being able to sell. Seriously at that time, who would want to sell a black Captain America, the symbol of America? Those artists, lots of them are dead by now as well.
Yes, because disrespecting the dead is SO much better.

There is also a reason why we use the term "minority" here. Why shouldn't the majority be represented ?
So we should be seeing a lot of Latinos now as well? Would you have a problem with that? The term minority and majority is such a misdemeanor. How can a group that large be consider a minority?

And notice how you totally didn't even tackle the issue that these artists were writing comics back when racism was extremely prevalent and that they couldn't sell a minority character during that time?

We disrespect dead people's art all the time btw.

4) Because they are? Because they are not a minority?
So ? Not being of a minority is just as much a part of a person's background as being part of one is.

White people are just as diverse and unique as anyone else. Any suggestion otherwise is racist.
[/quote]

Depends on the situation but for the most part, white people haven't gone through what a minority has gone through or...wait, have they when they fought for equal rights? Fought immigration laws (then again we did have Gangs of New York). Fought being stereotyped against.
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Old April 22 2010, 01:46 PM   #205
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

"Equal rights" work both ways. And I'm sure the minorities of today have it so tragically hard, what with their constant struggles against 'the Man.' Or are we talking historical precedence? Because, if so, I hate to break it to you but every single culture indulged in slavery and racism at one point or another.

But hey, it's apparently not racism if you're shitting on caucasians. Amirite?

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Old April 22 2010, 01:48 PM   #206
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Checkmate wrote: View Post
"Equal rights" work both ways. And I'm sure the minorities of today have it so tragically hard, what with their constant struggles against 'the Man.' Or are we talking historical precedence? Because, if so, I hate to break it to you but every single culture indulged in slavery and racism at one point or another.

But hey, it's apparently not racism if you're shitting on caucasians. Amirite?

No, you couldn't be more wrongheaded about this issue if you made a conscious effort.

There's nothing more pitiful than the resentment of a privileged class at being made to share.
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Old April 22 2010, 02:16 PM   #207
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Dennis wrote: View Post
There's nothing more pitiful than the resentment of a privileged class at being made to share.
I can think of something a lot more pitiful - people who share in that so-called privilege pretending that they care to make themselves feel better. That's all anyone here arguing for miscasting roles has done.

You people don't know a damned thing about equality or what it really means. You just sit there and blather on about white people this, white people that because they're an easy target. You think that nobody will question you and if anyone does they must be selfishly protecting their "privilege".

So go ahead, pat a black person on the head, give him a job and tell yourself that makes him equal to you when in fact you're as racist as anyone.

Thespeckledkiwi wrote: View Post
Depends on the situation but for the most part, white people haven't gone through what a minority has gone through or...wait, have they when they fought for equal rights? Fought immigration laws (then again we did have Gangs of New York). Fought being stereotyped against.
I'm fighting being stereotyped right now in this very thread.

Clark Kent, for example, was raised by white parents on a farm in Kansas. That's part of his identity. His childhood is as big a part of what makes him the person he is as Luke Cage growing up in Harlem made him the man he is.

I await the Last Airbender review threads where all of the apologists here furiously decry the casting of Asian characters with white actors.

Last edited by Hermiod; April 22 2010 at 02:27 PM.
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Old April 22 2010, 02:30 PM   #208
Thespeckledkiwi
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Hermiod wrote: View Post

I'm fighting being stereotyped right now in this very thread.

Clark Kent, for example, was raised by white parents on a farm in Kansas. That's part of his identity. His childhood is as big a part of what makes him the person he is as Luke Cage growing up in Harlem made him the man he is.
You do realize that one of the best Superman stories is when he was raised by...Russians! You know Slavics...as in a different culture all together.

But yes, let's use a white alien as an example.

Actually you could transplant Luke Cage to any of the rougher neighborhoods in the US and his story could largely remain intact.

They will pick the best actor/actress for the job as they see fit. They will pick the one that will bring in the most money as well (which is why they were flirting with the idea of casting Will Smith as Captain America).

This isn't an issue at all. It shouldn't be an issue. People are blowing it up, just like the Last Airbender, out of proportion without a) seeing the movie b) actually seeing how it fits.
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Old April 22 2010, 02:38 PM   #209
Hermiod
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Thespeckledkiwi wrote: View Post
You do realize that one of the best Superman stories is when he was raised by...Russians! You know Slavics...as in a different culture all together.
That was a "What If" not the original character. There's also a version of Spider-Man from India.

Actually you could transplant Luke Cage to any of the rougher neighborhoods in the US and his story could largely remain intact.
That's not the argument others have made here. Being black is supposedly an intrinsic part of his character in a way that cannot be applied to any white character. It's that argument that I have a problem with.

By defining a black person solely by his struggle against inequality you take a very narrow view of who that person is. Cage is not just black because he struggled against inequality, he's an African-American New Yorker, a product of the very specific culture that surrounded him.

Not too far away from him, another man named Peter Parker grew up in a very different culture, raised by his elderly aunt and uncle. His character is a product of that culture too.

They will pick the best actor/actress for the job as they see fit. They will pick the one that will bring in the most money as well (which is why they were flirting with the idea of casting Will Smith as Captain America).
Money and artistic integrity do not go hand in hand.

This isn't an issue at all. It shouldn't be an issue. People are blowing it up, just like the Last Airbender, out of proportion without a) seeing the movie b) actually seeing how it fits.
It's blown up out of all proportion by apologists like Dennis who believe that giving someone a handout makes them equal.
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Old April 22 2010, 02:46 PM   #210
Thespeckledkiwi
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

But that doesn't discount that it is still one of the best Superman books out there. There are a lot of What If? books out there and they are done very well, including that Spider-Man IIRC (it's been a while since I read that).

You also do realize that many, many white people have been filmed for roles that were a) black b) asian c) any other minority?

Also family life does not equal cultural to the degree you are placing yourself.

And yes it does. There is not much artistic integrity left in Hollywood. Passion of the Christ? Miscast Jesus, good job there! Your starting role! Lord of the Rings didn't follow the book, there goes the writer's intent. Watchman, with the big goofy octopus left out. Good job there. A lot of it is based on monetary value. The normal theater goer isn't going to know the different between a black Nick Fury and a white Nick Fury or a black Kingpin or a white Kingpin or really care for that matter.

THEY ARE NOT GETTING A HANDOUT. They auditioned. The group decided they liked person a better than person b. Who the hell cares if they are black or white?

And does it really matter since these guys are Gods? What does white have anything to do with Heimdall's character at all in the comic book? He's a freaking mystic pretty much. He could be green and I could care less because his color has nothing to do with his abilities.
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