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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade "The Needs of the Many"
Excellent 7 17.95%
Above Average 9 23.08%
Average 10 25.64%
Below Average 5 12.82%
Poor 8 20.51%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 13 2010, 08:18 AM   #91
ProwlAlpha
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

I agree with about the tone of the book. I got that feel it was almost Anti-Starfleet, especially with Rene Picard's speech at the end of the book. I mean Trek is pure Pro-Starfleet and no matter what, Starfleet officers are Heroic, Honorable, and are the futuristic version of Knights, even when some of them are up to no good, they are still almost heroic villains. Yet, the book is laced with if it wasn't for Starfleet, the Undine War wouldn't have happen, or we are being punished for our sins. All you have to do is replace Undine with terrorist and you got a book about the sins of the US Military,.
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Old April 13 2010, 01:46 PM   #92
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
Oh how fashionably cynical.

Honestly. One author being recognizably a Democrat is not the same thing as tolerance never "actually being practiced for real in this world."

I happen to believe that many things are tolerated by many people, on something of a daily basis.
It's not "fashionable," it's true of many people, especially of those who go to either political extreme. I could name examples of how this hypocrisy plays out under many different guises and ideologies, but I see no need to belabor the point.

Are there some out there who practice real tolerance? Yeah, but you won't find them in any hardline ideological camp. And they usually aren't the ones making the big noise to the whole world about how tolerant they are. They just DO it.
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Old April 13 2010, 02:02 PM   #93
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
3) to set the ST:O story within the larger novel continuity;
Why to heck would Needs of the Many have to do that STO is already very different from the books in that

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Old April 13 2010, 11:08 PM   #94
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

Garm Bel Iblis wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Garm Bel Iblis wrote: View Post
well i tried to keep an open mind and kept slogging through> I go to a part from the Essentialists (fromthe worst ep ever) and it turned into a racist rant about humans being superior and there was an obvious dig at Barry Goldwater, comparing him to Paxton from "Demons\Terra Prime."

Who's the editor that aproved this book? David Axelrod?
Heh...the Essentialists themselves were a bad caricature that had no intention of giving any kind of substance to those who disagreed with the official Trek line.

That's pretty disappointing that was picked up with the same shallowness.
I was waiting to hear from their media rep Limbaugh or Beck. This is without a doubt the most politicized book in trek lit maybe all of trek. its very disappointing, given IDIC is the underlying philosophy in trek, but this author has taken on the far left loon fringe to represent the Federation
The Federation has always been portrayed as being built on leftist/liberal values and rejecting the values of conservatives and the right wing in Star Trek.

Star Trek is and has always been a liberal, leftist program. Some creators have brought it further left, and some creators have brought it a bit closer to the center, but it has never been a centrist or right-wing franchise.

If you don't like that, I'd suggest you find another franchise.

ProwlAlpha wrote: View Post
I mean Trek is pure Pro-Starfleet and no matter what, Starfleet officers are Heroic, Honorable, and are the futuristic version of Knights, even when some of them are up to no good, they are still almost heroic villains.
Oh, nonsense. Star Trek has very clearly depicted Starfleet, throughout its entire history, as being an institution. And, like any institution, it has depicted Starfleet as being subject to the character flaws of its membership and its leadership. How many times do we have to run into Evil Admirals, or corrupt officers, before people get over this idea that Starfleet = Always Good?

ProwlAlpha wrote: View Post
I agree with about the tone of the book. I got that feel it was almost Anti-Starfleet, especially with Rene Picard's speech at the end of the book. I mean Trek is pure Pro-Starfleet and no matter what, Starfleet officers are Heroic, Honorable, and are the futuristic version of Knights, even when some of them are up to no good, they are still almost heroic villains. Yet, the book is laced with if it wasn't for Starfleet, the Undine War wouldn't have happen, or we are being punished for our sins. All you have to do is replace Undine with terrorist and you got a book about the sins of the US Military,.
I get so tired of this ridiculous argument in real life, and I'm PO'ed to see it applied to Star Trek, too.

Here's the thing:

Saying that the United States Armed Forces and/or the United States government have done bad things, and that those bad things have come back to bite us on the ass, is not the same thing as being anti-Armed Forces or anti-American.

It's acknowledging that bad things have been done and should not be done in the future. Period.

Let's say, for instance, that I acknowledge the fact that the United States government provided financial and material support to the military juntas that ruled Chile and Argentina in the 1970s and 1980s. The U.S. did this in the name of supporting anti-Communist allies in South America. These dictatorships murdered thousands of people -- some Communist terrorists, but many more innocent victims.

This was bad. I don't care what justification you can come up with; it was bad. It was morally wrong, it should not have been done. Period. There were better ways of fighting Communism in South America than supporting mass murderers, but the U.S. didn't take them.

Now, that does not mean that I'm anti-American. I love my country and everything it stands for. That's, in fact, what I hate about that policy of supporting the juntas -- that policy violated every principle that the United States is supposed to stand for.

Same thing here.

Now, I haven't read The Needs of the Many. I can't speak to exactly what you're saying.

But I can tell you this:

If the characters in The Needs of the Many are arguing that bad things that Starfleet has done has caused negative consequences for the Federation -- if, for instance, they are arguing that the U.S.S. Voyager should not have created an anti-Undine weapon during the "Scorpion" two-parter -- that does not make them anti-Starfleet. That makes them anti-that decision. That makes them anti-policy.

I hate the tendency people have to reduce any criticism of a state institution to "You're anti-whatever." It's dishonest and unfair.
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Old April 13 2010, 11:48 PM   #95
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

Sci, why do you hate freedom?

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Old April 13 2010, 11:50 PM   #96
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

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Old April 13 2010, 11:52 PM   #97
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

Dayton Ward wrote: View Post
Semper fudge?
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Old April 14 2010, 01:43 AM   #98
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

Dayton Ward wrote: View Post
^ Well, I'll give you this much: You never cease to amaze me.
I'm assuming your being sarcastic
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Old April 15 2010, 03:10 AM   #99
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
But with Unspoken Truth, I was expecting like a 9/10 and got a 7/10, so I was disappointed; with this, I was expecting like a 5/10 and got a 7/10, so I'm pleasantly surprised.
Yeah, same here. It doesn't hang together as a novel at all -- when I turned a page and saw the beginning of the timeline stuff I thought, that was the end of the book? But despite the fanwank and the game setup it does a lot better than it needed to do in some areas, particularly, as you mentioned, the Data and Dulmer/Lucsly sections.

Oh, and I didn't see the kind of military-bashing some people are complaining about, either. Cute touch of homophobia with the Code Pink thing, too, but Martin's not gay.
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Old April 15 2010, 03:40 AM   #100
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

^ Actually, "Code Pink" is an activist group who protests in large part against the military. In recent years, they got some press by trying to oust a Marine Corps officer recruiting station out of Berkeley, California, and even managed to convince the city council to declare the Marines there "uninvited and unwelcome intruders."

Yeah, I thought that was bizarre at first, myself, but then I remembered...it's Berkeley.
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Old April 15 2010, 03:41 AM   #101
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

If they ever do a remake of First Blood they should set it in Berkeley.
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Old April 16 2010, 12:54 AM   #102
Steve Roby
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

Dayton Ward wrote: View Post
^ Actually, "Code Pink" is an activist group who protests in large part against the military. In recent years, they got some press by trying to oust a Marine Corps officer recruiting station out of Berkeley, California, and even managed to convince the city council to declare the Marines there "uninvited and unwelcome intruders."

Yeah, I thought that was bizarre at first, myself, but then I remembered...it's Berkeley.
Ah. I stand corrected. I thought it was the name of the gay pro-gun group. Turns out I was thinking of Pink Pistols. Mea culpa.
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Old April 16 2010, 04:39 AM   #103
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

Sci wrote: View Post
Garm Bel Iblis wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post

Heh...the Essentialists themselves were a bad caricature that had no intention of giving any kind of substance to those who disagreed with the official Trek line.

That's pretty disappointing that was picked up with the same shallowness.
I was waiting to hear from their media rep Limbaugh or Beck. This is without a doubt the most politicized book in trek lit maybe all of trek. its very disappointing, given IDIC is the underlying philosophy in trek, but this author has taken on the far left loon fringe to represent the Federation
The Federation has always been portrayed as being built on leftist/liberal values and rejecting the values of conservatives and the right wing in Star Trek.

Star Trek is and has always been a liberal, leftist program. Some creators have brought it further left, and some creators have brought it a bit closer to the center, but it has never been a centrist or right-wing franchise.

If you don't like that, I'd suggest you find another franchise.

ProwlAlpha wrote: View Post
I mean Trek is pure Pro-Starfleet and no matter what, Starfleet officers are Heroic, Honorable, and are the futuristic version of Knights, even when some of them are up to no good, they are still almost heroic villains.
Oh, nonsense. Star Trek has very clearly depicted Starfleet, throughout its entire history, as being an institution. And, like any institution, it has depicted Starfleet as being subject to the character flaws of its membership and its leadership. How many times do we have to run into Evil Admirals, or corrupt officers, before people get over this idea that Starfleet = Always Good?

ProwlAlpha wrote: View Post
I agree with about the tone of the book. I got that feel it was almost Anti-Starfleet, especially with Rene Picard's speech at the end of the book. I mean Trek is pure Pro-Starfleet and no matter what, Starfleet officers are Heroic, Honorable, and are the futuristic version of Knights, even when some of them are up to no good, they are still almost heroic villains. Yet, the book is laced with if it wasn't for Starfleet, the Undine War wouldn't have happen, or we are being punished for our sins. All you have to do is replace Undine with terrorist and you got a book about the sins of the US Military,.
I get so tired of this ridiculous argument in real life, and I'm PO'ed to see it applied to Star Trek, too.

Here's the thing:

Saying that the United States Armed Forces and/or the United States government have done bad things, and that those bad things have come back to bite us on the ass, is not the same thing as being anti-Armed Forces or anti-American.

It's acknowledging that bad things have been done and should not be done in the future. Period.

Let's say, for instance, that I acknowledge the fact that the United States government provided financial and material support to the military juntas that ruled Chile and Argentina in the 1970s and 1980s. The U.S. did this in the name of supporting anti-Communist allies in South America. These dictatorships murdered thousands of people -- some Communist terrorists, but many more innocent victims.

This was bad. I don't care what justification you can come up with; it was bad. It was morally wrong, it should not have been done. Period. There were better ways of fighting Communism in South America than supporting mass murderers, but the U.S. didn't take them.

Now, that does not mean that I'm anti-American. I love my country and everything it stands for. That's, in fact, what I hate about that policy of supporting the juntas -- that policy violated every principle that the United States is supposed to stand for.

Same thing here.

Now, I haven't read The Needs of the Many. I can't speak to exactly what you're saying.

But I can tell you this:

If the characters in The Needs of the Many are arguing that bad things that Starfleet has done has caused negative consequences for the Federation -- if, for instance, they are arguing that the U.S.S. Voyager should not have created an anti-Undine weapon during the "Scorpion" two-parter -- that does not make them anti-Starfleet. That makes them anti-that decision. That makes them anti-policy.

I hate the tendency people have to reduce any criticism of a state institution to "You're anti-whatever." It's dishonest and unfair.
I came here to say exactly this.

One can be a patriot and a critic. I tend to think to be a true patriot your must be a critic.

Starfleet has never been portrayed as perfect. Trek is mostly built upon a belief that humanity is mostly evolved and much better than now. But that doesn't mean that individuals don't mess up. Criticizing the military (Starfleet) doesn't make you a bad person, especially if you have cause. Unlike the state of Texas, you can't simply re-write the book and pretend the bad things never happened and skip over things. One of my favorite quotes is "experience brings success, but failure brings experience". Many of the good things that people and nations do come as a result of fixing mistakes or knowing better because of mistakes. Irnoring them makes you ignorant, embracing them and using them to inspire and bring about change is patriotic.

As for the military stuff, I merely think that "stereotype" was done to show the juxtaposition. The character was set up as a stereotypical soldier, but by the end of the interview (if you actually read it all) the reader (and Jake) realize he is a much more complicated and haunted character. Also, living in a city with a military base I have met TONS of soldiers who have talked or acted like this. But as is the case with everyone, when you break it down and talk to them that outer layer peels away and reveals much more complicated people. It's easy to accuse the author of "stereotyping", but not ready the book or simply dismissing everything else used to describe the character is no better. In other words, you are classifying every gruff soldier who speaks with bravado as some kind of negative. That is a stereotype. The irony is thick.

Overall i thought a few interviews were weird and surreal, but many others were excellent. Overall i graded it as "average".

My apologies for any typos or other things, this was the first thing of length i typed on my iPad.
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Old April 16 2010, 01:02 PM   #104
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

I'm not going to get into a debate about the politics of the game or the book because I didn't read it because of that aspect. I can understand why so many people are disappointed with this book. The presentation and format of the novel isn't what I was expecting. I was expecting this to be a series of stories chronicling the events of pre-Star Trek Online not interviews Jake conducts with various figures on their views of a war against Species 8472. Is there going to be another Star Trek Online book that deals with the events in the game? Or is this it? I mainly got it for a friend since he has the game and I wanted to finish reading the time line which I found interesting. Some of the fanwank stuff I'm not sure about...I'm glad this is just game material and not Trek Lit canon.
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Old April 18 2010, 05:04 AM   #105
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Re: Star Trek: Online: The Needs of the Many - Discussion (Spoilers)

I have scanned this thread and found very little actually discussing the book....I am going to avoid the whole military debate because I could honestly care less...

I thought this was a terrific book. I couldn't put it down and really hope that a sequel is written. It depicted an interesting post-Nemesis timeline which I found to be engaging and creative.
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