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Old April 14 2010, 02:14 AM   #16
Kai Winn
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
DS9 - Just about any Starfleet officer's, other than Sisko in the later seasons, reaction to the Bajoran religion.

VOY - False Profits - Janeway, using Human standards, flat out rejects any concept that the Takarian religion might be correct or in any benefical.
do you want to say religions are beneficial? 'false profits', two ferengi set themselves up as gods on a primitive planet to benefit no one but themselves. the bajorans, setting up some sort of wormhole aliens as gods, and claiming they want bajor to live in an oppressive cast society. i don't see any benefits other than for the members of the high castes, and those who claim their power to decide the fate of bajor is given to them by the prophets. centuries ago, the bajorans were more advanced then humans, but while humans threw all that trash overboard and established the federation, bajor remained trapped in a dark age, and became an easy prey for an aggressive species.
if starfleet has nothing but contempt for the pointless mumbojumbo which religions are, i certainly agree.
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Old April 14 2010, 02:18 AM   #17
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post

A few examples of what I was thinking of....

TOS - The Return of the Archons - They pass judgement on the concept of the Festival because it's not what Humans would do.
No, they passed judgement on a system set up by and run by a machine that imposed its will on human beings by force, and rightly so.

Landru's "peace" left the inhabitants of that planet with as much free will as your average Borg drone.

TNG - Suddenly Human - They simply assume that Jono would natuarally want to return to his Human family. They also look down on the Talarian concept of taking war orphans and raising them as their own children.
So it's ok to kidnapp someone as long as you do it early enough and make sure that he grows up "one of you" so he doesn't even know he's been taken from his rightful place? Jono was and is a Federation citizen. It was Picard's DUTY to return him to his rightful society and family.

DS9 - Just about any Starfleet officer's, other than Sisko in the later seasons, reaction to the Bajoran religion.
Show me where they stopped them from practicing said religion.

VOY - False Profits - Janeway, using Human standards, flat out rejects any concept that the Takarian religion might be correct or in any benefical.
Given that the Ferengi were posing as "gods" and exploiting the people for their own profit, it was the right call.
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Old April 14 2010, 02:24 AM   #18
darkwing_duck1
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Kai Winn wrote: View Post
Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
DS9 - Just about any Starfleet officer's, other than Sisko in the later seasons, reaction to the Bajoran religion.

VOY - False Profits - Janeway, using Human standards, flat out rejects any concept that the Takarian religion might be correct or in any benefical.
do you want to say religions are beneficial? 'false profits', two ferengi set themselves up as gods on a primitive planet to benefit no one but themselves. the bajorans, setting up some sort of wormhole aliens as gods, and claiming they want bajor to live in an oppressive cast society. i don't see any benefits other than for the members of the high castes, and those who claim their power to decide the fate of bajor is given to them by the prophets. centuries ago, the bajorans were more advanced then humans, but while humans threw all that trash overboard and established the federation, bajor remained trapped in a dark age, and became an easy prey for an aggressive species.
if starfleet has nothing but contempt for the pointless mumbojumbo which religions are, i certainly agree.
It was Bajoran faith that saw them through the Occupation and the Dominion War. It was Sisko's coming to faith that allowed him to be the Emmissary that the Bajorans needed to seal away the Pah Wraiths once and for all.

That some people do bad things in the name of religion does not necessarily make the religion bad (depends on the religion).
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Old April 14 2010, 02:42 AM   #19
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Kai Winn wrote: View Post
Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
DS9 - Just about any Starfleet officer's, other than Sisko in the later seasons, reaction to the Bajoran religion.

VOY - False Profits - Janeway, using Human standards, flat out rejects any concept that the Takarian religion might be correct or in any benefical.
do you want to say religions are beneficial? 'false profits', two ferengi set themselves up as gods on a primitive planet to benefit no one but themselves. the bajorans, setting up some sort of wormhole aliens as gods, and claiming they want bajor to live in an oppressive cast society.
What does the Bajoran religion have to do with their caste system? There was nothing on the show to suggest that the two were interconnected, and Bajoran religion lived on after Bajorans had abandoned the caste system.
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Old April 14 2010, 04:34 AM   #20
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Kai Winn wrote: View Post
It was Bajoran faith that saw them through the Occupation and the Dominion War.
An assumption. I assume it was their tenacious will to live, just like any other species.
That some people do bad things in the name of religion does not necessarily make the religion bad (depends on the religion).
Depends on the religion? Are there good religions and bad religions? That seems like the same kind of thing as saying 'My religion is right and yours is wrong.'

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Old April 14 2010, 04:36 AM   #21
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Kai Winn wrote: View Post
do you want to say religions are beneficial? 'false profits', two ferengi set themselves up as gods on a primitive planet to benefit no one but themselves. the bajorans, setting up some sort of wormhole aliens as gods,
And who's to say that the Wormhole Aliens aren't gods? After all, a god is by definition not a creature native to one's planet -- and so's an alien. All gods are by definition also extraterrestrial life-forms (or, if you will, extra-Bajoran life-forms). And certainly everyone agrees that they're native to the Bajoran Wormhole, whether they be gods or aliens.

Really, where's the contradiction between their being gods and their being aliens?

and claiming they want bajor to live in an oppressive cast society.
There is no evidence whatsoever that the Bajoran Church required that caste system.

i don't see any benefits other than for the members of the high castes, and those who claim their power to decide the fate of bajor is given to them by the prophets. centuries ago, the bajorans were more advanced then humans, but while humans threw all that trash overboard and established the federation, bajor remained trapped in a dark age, and became an easy prey for an aggressive species.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Bajorans were "trapped in a dark age;" being conquered by a hostile foreign imperialist does not mean you're primitive.

Nor is there any evidence whatsoever that the Bajoran religion is responsible for the Bajorans' apparently relatively static rate of technological development. Different cultures develop technology at different rates, and one going slower and one going faster does not make one culture better or worse than others -- nor is such a rate necessarily linked to religiosity.

if starfleet has nothing but contempt for the pointless mumbojumbo which religions are, i certainly agree.
If Starfleet has nothing but contempt for religion, then it's not living up to its so-called IDIC respects for all cultures, and is as hypocritical as some claim the Klingons are.
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Old April 14 2010, 08:16 AM   #22
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
It was Bajoran faith that saw them through the Occupation and the Dominion War. It was Sisko's coming to faith that allowed him to be the Emmissary that the Bajorans needed to seal away the Pah Wraiths once and for all.

That some people do bad things in the name of religion does not necessarily make the religion bad (depends on the religion).
that's how my namesake who based her claim to power on religion argued, while the armed resistance probably claimed all the credit for their fight. actually, the instinct for survival seems to have evolved over the eons, and is a property of life.
weren't the pah wraiths the very same species like the prophets, in fact a faction of the prophets that lost a struggle for the power and got exiled? isn't the whole story really silly, because if they exist at any point of time, they must have known their attempt to leave the fire caves, and destroy the competition as well as a number of lesser species will fail? shouldn't they have known their uprising in the wormhole is doomed to fail in the first place?
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Old April 14 2010, 11:21 AM   #23
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Kai Winn wrote: View Post
do you want to say religions are beneficial? 'false profits', two ferengi set themselves up as gods on a primitive planet to benefit no one but themselves. the bajorans, setting up some sort of wormhole aliens as gods, and claiming they want bajor to live in an oppressive cast society. i don't see any benefits other than for the members of the high castes, and those who claim their power to decide the fate of bajor is given to them by the prophets. centuries ago, the bajorans were more advanced then humans, but while humans threw all that trash overboard and established the federation, bajor remained trapped in a dark age, and became an easy prey for an aggressive species.
if starfleet has nothing but contempt for the pointless mumbojumbo which religions are, i certainly agree.
If religion does nothing but trap people in a "dark age" where they remain technological inferior and weak, why are Klingons, who maintain their religion into the 24th century, more technologically adept and stronger militarily in the 22nd century than are Humans.

After all, by the 22nd century, Humans had supposed dropped all that "trash." Yet, a society that retains its religion is stronger. Weird.

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Show me where they stopped them from practicing said religion.
I never said Starfleet kept the Bajorans from practicing the religion. However, many Starfleet officers often looked down and ridiculed the practice. The most striking example is when Dax flat out ridicules Sisko's faith in The Reckoning.
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Old April 14 2010, 11:26 AM   #24
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Navaros wrote: View Post
Worf murdered an unarmed Weyoun,
Weyon was accompanied and protected by several armed guards though, while Worf himself was unarmed. Weyoun was the one with the "tactical superiority" here. What was Worf supposed to do? Announcing his intention first? "I'm going to attack you in five seconds. Prepare yourself"? Well, that would go rather well. Using the element of surprise isn't necessarily considered dishonourable, especially when you're in a inferior position.

Weyoun had it coming. If you don't want to get attacked by a Klingon, don't capture him, don't torture him, don't threaten him with execution, and don't insult his "girlfriend" in front of her. And you could in fact argue that Worf was defending Ezri's honour by killing Weyoun. Under these conditions it's fair game. Weyoun was the one challenging Worf. I don't see anything dishonourable here.



Navaros wrote: View Post
and also challenged Gowron to a duel even though according to Klingon rules he was only allowed to challenge Martok.
When was this explicitly stated? All the other Klingons in the room (except for Martok) didn't seem to have much of a problem with Worf challenging Gowron. They also wanted to make him Chancellor after he won.

And even if he broke some rule by challenging Gowron... there's a difference between following the rules and being honourable. Some of the most dishonourable Klingons were always following the "rules". I guess Gowron wasn't breaking any rules when he dishonoured Worf and his family again in "The Way of the Warrior". But it still wasn't a very honourable thing to do.
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Old April 14 2010, 01:27 PM   #25
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
The Klingons are definitely hypocrites, but no more so than the Federation.

The Klingons talk a big game about honor, but then constantly act dishonorably.

The Federation talks a big game about understanding and acceptance, but then constantly judges others by UFP standards.
True.

But I would say that the Federation never openly condoned or committed intolerant acts. Section 31 may have attempted genocide of the Founders, but the Federation stated that they don't know Section 31 existed. Klingons make little secret of their hypocrisy, and even let outsiders (like Picard) be privy to it.
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Old April 14 2010, 01:31 PM   #26
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
The Klingons are definitely hypocrites, but no more so than the Federation.

The Klingons talk a big game about honor, but then constantly act dishonorably.

The Federation talks a big game about understanding and acceptance, but then constantly judges others by UFP standards.
That's because the Federation actually follows its moral code.
The alternative is not applying this moral code when it comes to others - aka betraying its morals. The prime directive streches the limit of its morality as it is.

The klingons's honor code, on the other hand, changes with the situation.
And the cardassians' morals - well, ask bajorans about it.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Shran--you pretty much summed it up as far as I'm concerned.
Envy is NOT a desirable trait, Nerys Ghemor.
How are Cardassians schizophrenic/inconsistent?

Cardassia always was a fascist/authoritarian society, that ruthlessly put down its enemies. The Occupation of Bajor is wholly consisent with Cardassian morals. How often do Starfleet officers say that they never hope to be a Cardassian prisoner? Ruthlessness is part of Cardassian moral behaviour.
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Old April 14 2010, 01:40 PM   #27
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Yeah, the Cardassian government was always pretty clear that as far as they were concerned, the ends justified the means. They never played at any other sort of moral system.
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Old April 14 2010, 01:59 PM   #28
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

I'd say that the area where the Cardassian society is very hypocritical/contradictory is their "family values". They say that the family is very important to them, but apparently it means that everyone must have a perfect biological nuclear family, while orphans have no rights and the society makes no effort to take care of them, and children born out of wedlock are seen as a disgrace and should be murdered.
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Old April 14 2010, 04:51 PM   #29
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

Gagarin wrote: View Post
So, yes Klingons are hypocrits, because everyone is, but I wonder if Worf keeps trying to compare reality to an idealized existence that everyone else but him is in touch doesn't exist. Worf is a romantic, if there was one.
Amen.

In reality, Practice rarely lives up to the Ideal. Worf has really had no experience with the practiceof Klingon society, he has grown up with the ideal. He knows Klingons as they should be, not as they are.

Klingons could be called hypocrites, but perhaps "realists" is a less pejorative term: they understand that the way things should be and the way they are are two different things. And few of them have the conviction of Don Quixote or Worf to live as if things are they way they should be and try to change they way things are by example.
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Old April 14 2010, 04:55 PM   #30
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Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
It was Bajoran faith that saw them through the Occupation and the Dominion War.
Ro Laren would disagree.
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