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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 10 2010, 02:04 AM   #16
The Trekster
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Re: Guy in Gown

@withers: oh man, how much did it bother you seeing seven of nine climbing jeffries tube ladders in high heels. I could understand the producers putting women on the show in heels, but she was the former borg!! No other women, or men (that I noticed), ever wore high heels on the show. ugh.

@therin: It seems like they took the 'quick change' theory into account still after they ditched the mini-dresses. Remember when Microcosm when Janeway gets back to the ship, goes to engineering, strips down, and loads up on guns? It took her all of 30 seconds (and was hot :P).

We also saw picard in his leather-topped 'command coat' uniform thing starting in season 5, I think? Might that be just one of the many ways one could wear their uniform, or do you think it was special captain's privileges? Maybe he was just getting old and everything was too cold for him. Maybe he shoulda just moved to Florida...

(oh and sorry about the VOY references, is that kosher?)
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Old April 10 2010, 02:22 AM   #17
Keith1701
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Re: Guy in Gown

I think he was some officer in the background.
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Old April 10 2010, 02:29 AM   #18
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Re: Guy in Gown

Right now, today, there is no respectable military (or military-esque) organization in the world that would put a man or a woman in a skirt and ask him or her to perform any sort of manual labor.

Who says this crewman has to crawl through tubes?
Have you seen an episode of Star Trek before? Any of them? They're forever crawling through tubes, up ladders, and over fallen debris. They go on away missions to hostile planets, they recalibrate sensor arrays, program torpedoes, move stuff around on floating dollies, and that's all to say nothing of the fact that they're pretty routinely in combat with stuff exploding sending shrapnel in all directions.

I'm not saying that the idea was silly based on what it looked like. I'm saying it was silly based on the notion of working in a skirt. It was silly in 1980. It was silly in 1990. It is silly in 2010. The notion of working in a skirt is silly. Not because of how it looks (though it does look pretty stupid) but because of the practical limitations and the unnecessary exposure to risk working in such a uniform would have and cause.

The idea that some planets being visited might be incredibly hot would make a casual, short version of the uniform essential. Why not something that looks like a skirt, no matter a person's gender?
Well, they weren't wearing it on a desert planet, were they? They were wearing it around the Enterprise (which I'm assuming had climate control.) And as for the "what if?" Here's your answer;

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/File...esert_robe.jpg

My argument isn't about fashion. My argument is about practicality and how, if it seems stupid now it would seem stupid in the future to ask anyone to work (under the conditions Starfleet Officers were under) in a skirt with no coverings for their legs.

@withers: oh man, how much did it bother you seeing seven of nine climbing jeffries tube ladders in high heels. I could understand the producers putting women on the show in heels, but she was the former borg!! No other women, or men (that I noticed), ever wore high heels on the show. ugh.
Yes, very much- it was clear the actress was uncomfortable so the idea that the character would perform the tasks she did wearing that...thing, with those shoes... well, I rolled my eyes pretty hard.


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Old April 10 2010, 02:46 AM   #19
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Re: Guy in Gown

VulcanLoveSlave wrote: View Post
@withers: oh man, how much did it bother you seeing seven of nine climbing jeffries tube ladders in high heels. I could understand the producers putting women on the show in heels, but she was the former borg!! No other women, or men (that I noticed), ever wore high heels on the show. ugh.
Most of the women's boots have heels on them. Not like 7 of 9 but not like the men's boots either.


I thought the skants looked silly but also that was the brilliance of them in a way. They were challenging to our preconceptions and an interesting conceit but it was too much I guess.
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Old April 10 2010, 04:38 AM   #20
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Re: Guy in Gown

Withers wrote: View Post
It's like working in high heels or in combat boots if you're a sever at a restaurant. It's just impractical and doesn't take any advanced form of knowledge to figure that out.
An aside: I have worked as a server in a restaurant, and "combat boots" (US Military issue, the ones that every soldier buys boots better than with his first paycheck) were the most comfortable shoes I ever wore in that job.
In fact, I went from being a sneaker person to wearing those boots at work all the time.

Agree about the high-heels, though. Not practical footwear for someone who's going to spend hours on their feet.
How about sneakers in a kitchen: sounds like a good idea, until you realize that rubber soles + grease = slipperier than almost any alternative.
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Old April 10 2010, 12:03 PM   #21
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Re: Guy in Gown

I don't know about this. I mean, I get it that the OP feels that seeing men in skirts in ST "was silly," but really as far as human fashion is concerned, men-in-trousers is a relatively recent dress code and its use was limited to northern European climes for a long period.

Historically, the Romans managed to run a relatively successful and millennia-lasting republic and empire with their soldiers in skirts and senators in gowns and all other men wandering around shamelessly in at-the-knee shifts; the Greeks before them in their chitons (below the shin for older men, and at the knee for young ones) and mantles (gowns sometimes worn off one bare shoulder), and even gadding about in an chalmys when the mood took them; the Egyptians before them with those linen towels slung round their hips and the bare-chestedness of it all.

Even today, where the West dictates what's in and what's not in all things, including dress-code, there are still many regions of the planet that feature "men in gowns" as the fashionable norm.

They seem to manage ok with their sense of masculinity intact, i.e. without feeling "outright silly."

There's no historical basis for thinking that what is considered utilitarian dress in the future for males should be fixed to our current cultural fashion comfort zone, is there?
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Old April 10 2010, 12:49 PM   #22
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Re: Guy in Gown

LaBarre wrote: View Post
the Greeks before them in their chitons
Not to mention being all athletic in the nude at the ancient Olympic Games.

I'm also reminded of a great quotable quote, by my Teachers College history lecturer: "The male youth of Sparta were not permitted to wear underwear. This was to harden them against the winter."
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Old April 10 2010, 04:43 PM   #23
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Re: Guy in Gown

Would people be so opposed if they wore shorts? In the summer, where I work we can wear shorts on Fridays and most everyone takes advantage of that as it's very comfortable. It doesn't seem very impractical at all. I think it's just people's preconceptions that are at work here.
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Old April 10 2010, 05:00 PM   #24
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Re: Guy in Gown

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...G_Uniforms.png

Women wear skirts. And depending what happens in 300 (three hundred) years, men may do that, too.
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Old April 10 2010, 10:40 PM   #25
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Re: Guy in Gown

^That's a picture of a woman in a dress uniform ironically enough. Do you think she wears that while she's piloting an F-18? Or parachutes wearing that?

Since the notion of certain things being less practical to wear than others for certain types of jobs seems so... foreign, let me put this way to further reiterate that this has nothing to do with how overwhelmingly stupid the Skant Uniform looked but has everything to do with how impractical it was and silly due to the fact.

I would never put on a pair of Jenco's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jnco175.jpg) and go mountain biking. "Why Withers? That seems perfectly reasonable!" Well, it isn't. The extra baggy pants could easily get caught in the chain of my bike or the spokes on its tires causing a crash that might easily result in serious injury. Wearing such a thing would be a hazard not only to me but to potentially anyone else I was with. When it would be so much easier to put on a more appropriate and safe thing to go mountain biking in, why would I run the risk of wearing a pair of Jenco's?

I wouldn't.

"But the Greeks and Romans wore skirts and they fought in Gladiatorial arenas!" Well, they hadn't invented pants. Nomadic Iranian horseman came up with the idea of trousers sometime later. If I went up to a Gladiator and said "Hey buddy, you can keep wearing that skirt or you can wear these pants that cover your legs and offer at least some minimal protection as opposed to bare flesh," what do you think he'd say?

That's all to say nothing of the fact that pointing at an ancient civilization and saying "They did it! Why wouldn't people in the 24th century do it," it tantamount to "He get's to why not me!" I'm not entirely certain about this but I think a lot of practices utilized by the Greeks and Romans fell by the wayside between BC and the 24th century in favor of more practical solutions.

It boils down to the fact that this isn't about fashion or twenty first century viewpoints on men wearing skirts. It's about functionality (and I guess I should say just to make it clear- it was as stupid for Dianna and Tasha to sport the skant as it was for a guy to do so.) On a Starship (even the pleasure craft Enterprise-D) the notion that one could easily be in dangerous situations where debris and explosions wouldn't be at all unheard of yet still be expected to wear a skirt is unreasonable.



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Old April 11 2010, 04:49 AM   #26
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Re: Guy in Gown

Yeah, the reason modern military uniforms include the option of skirts for women is that less than 100 years ago it was fairly scandalous for a woman to wear pants.
Same with the hats: 60 years ago a proper gentleman wore a hat in public, so the military includes a hat in the uniform, and expects it to be worn.
The military is a little slow to change, but change it does.

And I doubt you'll find a Coast Guard crewman in a skirt on a ship. Just as I doubt you'll find a member of a Highland Regiment wearing a kilt in combat.

Dress uniforms often include features that make them impractical to work in: I believe the men's Dress Uniform in the first season or two of TNG was a below-the-knee-length dress (over pants). In later seasons, it got shortened to mid-thigh.
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Old April 11 2010, 09:11 AM   #27
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Re: Guy in Gown

It was a silly thing to show on a TV show.
It doesn't matter if 300 years from now guys do end up wearing them, it looked silly on the show.

I heard that in ancient Rome the Gladiators would frequently promote products that they used, like which sandals they bought, or where they liked to eat after they won a fight.
Ridley Scott was thinking of showing this in his movie with Russell Crowe but didn't because it would be too hard to swallow.
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Old April 11 2010, 10:51 PM   #28
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Re: Guy in Gown

Withers wrote: View Post
^That's a picture of a woman in a dress uniform ironically enough. Do you think she wears that while she's piloting an F-18? Or parachutes wearing that?

Was the guy walking down the hallway in a skirt piloting an F-18 or about to parachute?
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Old April 12 2010, 09:31 AM   #29
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Re: Guy in Gown

Withers wrote: View Post
Do you think she wears that while she's piloting an F-18? Or parachutes wearing that?
Did Uhura?

Unless they don't have time, they are permitted to get changed. Uhura put on Starfleet coveralls to get underneath her communications station in TOS. The only time I can recall a woman in ST wearing her highly impractical skirt uniform for very dirty duty was Marianna Hill, as Dr Helen Noel, crawling through a shaft in TOS.
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Old April 12 2010, 07:50 PM   #30
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Re: Guy in Gown

Was the guy walking down the hallway in a skirt piloting an F-18 or about to parachute?
Tasha Yar was the effing Security Chief. How much more labor intensive does the job need to be before wearing a skirt becomes a ludacris notion for you? You're thinking I have objection to this one guy wearing the uniform and it isn't just him. As I've said at least three times now my objection isn't to the fact that a man is wearing a skirt. And for all I know that guy was a shuttle craft pilot. He could have been the guy in charge of polishing the ladder rungs in the jeffries tubes for all I know- that's all beside the point.


Did Uhura?
This is a little bit different for a handful of reasons. First of all she's a character from the early 1960's not the late 1980's. At that particular time the alternative to making her feminine was making her something akin to "Rosie the Riveter" and I think it's pretty clear they were aiming for feminine with Uhura. Putting Uhura in pants would have detracted from her appeal at that time (or so I assume) whereas today (or when TNG was produced) seeing a woman in pants wouldn't have detracted from their "feminine appeal" (see: Seven of Nine, Kira, Ezri, T'Pol, Crusher).

Finally, yes, it was just as stupid for her to wear a skirt as it was for anybody else to wear a skirt as a uniform in an easily hazardous situation and it is as simple as that. When there's a chance for sparks and debris to contact your skin it's crazy to expose more flesh as opposed to less. ("Hold on Mr Klingon. Don't fire those torpedoes yet. Uhura has to change into her overalls.")

In summation on that point I'm a little more forgiving of Uhura wearing a skirt because it would have been antithetical to what they were trying to accomplish with the character to put her in something else, given the time period in which the show was produced. Two decades later, however, there was no such excuse for it.



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