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Old April 6 2010, 07:04 PM   #31
Data Holmes
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

Stone_Cold_Sisko wrote: View Post
Data Holmes wrote: View Post
That's just a mock up at this point...
That's incorrect, there were several working versions shown at CES, one on a walk-through by an HP guy.
I meant the video, not the actual device.
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Old April 6 2010, 07:32 PM   #32
Robert Maxwell
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

Shaw wrote: View Post
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Vendor lock-in and control is a big part of why I don't buy Apple products.
I, personally, shy away from anything that involves vender lock-in... because you never can be sure that a vender will be around in the future. Everything about all my computers will function independently of the future existence of the original vender or their continued support.

As examples, I use Sun, SGI and NeXT systems, none of them are still around (as independent companies) any more, nor do I need them to be. The same is true of all my Apple products. If Apple disappears tomorrow, I could function for years (most likely 10 or more) without worrying about anything other than hardware fixes (which I've always done myself anyways).

The alternatives are nothing short of horror stories from my perspective.

For example, Windows since the release of XP. If Microsoft disappeared tomorrow, you wouldn't be able to install/reinstall Windows on your computer. Microsoft has to activate your installation. No Microsoft, no activation, no Windows.
Microsoft's attempts at vendor lock-in are pretty piss-poor, in my opinion. Windows Activation aside--because it is so easily bypassed--Microsoft doesn't control what software can and can't run on Windows. They don't require you to purchase a license from them to develop Windows software, and so forth.

Any Linux or BSD flavor would, of course, be preferable for commodity PC hardware if you really want to avoid even the appearance of vendor lock-in.

Another example is Mathematica since either version 3 or 4. Wolfram has to activate your copy Mathematica for your hardware. I had version 4.1 installed on my PowerBook which had it's logic board die. When I replaced the logic board (which included the hardware serial number of the system), Mathematica stopped running. As there wasn't anything I absolutely needed from that version, I just went back to using version 2.2.2 (which didn't have that issue).
Ugh. I hate hardware hashing, dongles, and all that jazz. What a bunch of nonsense.

Another example was a number of online music stores which closed down. In the case of Microsoft's MSN Music Store, once Microsoft shut down their playsforsure server, whatever system your music was on was the final resting place of that music, it couldn't be activated on any other future systems.
This is why I only buy unrestricted MP3s online.

I don't trust corporations... any corporation, enough to need that type of dependance on them.
I agree. I realize the situation is different on the Mac, but when it comes to the iPhone/iPad ecosystem, Apple holds all the keys, and I'm not too keen on that.

If Apple disappears tomorrow... oh well. My newest Mac is 10 years old. I'll most likely keep using it for another couple years before I get something newer (but used). It could be 10 years before I end up with whatever new Macs are being sold today and another 10 years after that before I start to worry about what I'll need to replace that with (most likely a Linux system if that were the case). We're talking about nearly 20+ years before Apple's disappearance would have a direct effect on me. NeXT has been gone for 13 years (and Apple dropped support for it's products about 10 years ago) and I'm still happily using those systems today.
If Apple disappears tomorrow, iPhones and iPads become expensive paperweights. At best, they would be little more than pricey phones and Internet terminals, respectively. Then again, if no one's maintaining the hardware and software anymore, I guess people would have free reign to jailbreak them with impunity.

Decry vender lock-in all you want, I'll be standing right there at your side doing the same. None of us should be that dependent on any of these corporations. Apple users haven't yet been screwed over the way that Microsoft users have been, but the potential is absolutely there in some of these products and people should be aware of it.
I realize Microsoft would love to control things to a greater extent than they do, but they just can't. The Windows platform has been around too long for anyone to put up with locking it down now. Even Windows 7's activation system was cracked before RTM. I fear for the day Microsoft becomes remotely competent at vendor lock-in, though! That'll be the last day I use Windows on any home PC.
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Old April 6 2010, 08:32 PM   #33
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

The battery life shortfall will be a huge problem. So will the inevitably half-baked overlay UI to cover up Windows 7's shortcomings as a touch-enabled OS. In the end though, I think that the Slate and the iPad are targeting different markets. The HP offers the same computing experience you can get on a laptop or desktop with touch input grafted over top. The iPad offers a new experience that focuses on getting the user to his/her content with the least amount of fuss. So its entirely likely that the Slate and the iPad could be successful catering to different segements.

Or the HP could fall flat on its face, like every single Windows-based tablet before it.
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Old April 6 2010, 10:51 PM   #34
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Microsoft's attempts at vendor lock-in are pretty piss-poor, in my opinion. Windows Activation aside--because it is so easily bypassed--Microsoft doesn't control what software can and can't run on Windows. They don't require you to purchase a license from them to develop Windows software, and so forth.

Any Linux or BSD flavor would, of course, be preferable for commodity PC hardware if you really want to avoid even the appearance of vendor lock-in.
I haven't used Windows for years, but from what I've read about how Microsoft treats users and developers on Windows, I'm surprised (shocked) that you would use such a platform.

To my knowledge, Apple (nor any other computer/software company) can hold a candle to the things that Microsoft has both attempted and/or accomplished. And I've personally seen Microsoft bare down on people for software piracy who weren't even using Microsoft products.


But I'm curious... you seem to be holding Apple's standards for iPhone/iPad development up against Windows rather than something like the Xbox. I don't know about Windows, but I can write software for a Mac without paying a single cent. On the other hand, I don't see the Xbox as an open (license free) system for development.

Heck, I could actually start development of Mac software on a Linux or BSD system using GNUstep as a foundation as GNUstep was originally based on the OpenStep Specifications, which in turn are what Cocoa APIs (used in both Mac and iPhone environments) are based on.

So are you holding Apple to a higher standard than Microsoft? I mean shouldn't there be just one standard for everything?

It is funny... Apple is just some company, and really doesn't have the ability to effect anyone's lives if those people don't want it to. Microsoft has it's hands in nearly every aspect of our world (and by world, I mean most countries). Microsoft is much like the banks that were too big to fail... no matter what, the world couldn't survive if Microsoft disappeared at this point.

Literally, Apple doesn't know anything about vender lock-in compared to Microsoft, and Microsoft has been willing at times to pay multi-million dollar fines daily to protect that lock-in. I've seen Apple do some bad things... but they are still amateurs at lock-in.
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Old April 6 2010, 11:26 PM   #35
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

Mr. B wrote: View Post
It's like an iPad... that you can plug a thumb drive in to... Awesome!
And do multiple things with at once, and probably even actualy change the batteries on when they die for good (rather than backing up personal files and shipping your device away and being without it for a several weeks while your multi-hundred dollar battery change takes place.)

This HP device looks a little more like it in this market for portable computers.
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Old April 6 2010, 11:41 PM   #36
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

Data Holmes wrote: View Post
Brent wrote: View Post
Data Holmes wrote: View Post
So, some of the specs and price for this new HP is leaking out:

1.6GHz Atom processor
32GB of storage on board storage
8.9-inch, 1024x600 screen
5 hours of battery life


So, it's basically a touch screen netbook, and not a true PADD.
Um, define a true "PADD"?

I don't think the comparison should be to a fictional Star Trek PADD, I think the comparison should be the to the iPad, which is its clear competition.

IF the specs you posted are correct, then it seems like it will compete very well with the iPad. Certainly it has the capability to have more features than the first gen iPad.
I'm not comparing it to the trek device, I just think that the trek nomenclature is correct for this new field of device. It is a Personal Access Display/Device. Not a true computer, like netbooks, tablet pc's, UMPC's ect. It is simply an electronic device which primary function is to allow access to media and content, with limited on board storage primarily for native applications and short term storage of media content for off network access, from a central "library" computer, media server, or the internet.
Why would I want a device like that when I could have one that does the same thing but is also built well for storage and has flash drive capacity? What's the point of matching a device to something that you think could be cool when you can make it do even more?
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Old April 7 2010, 12:01 AM   #37
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

DH's comparisson of this device and what maks a "true" device of this nature with the metric of TNG's PADD is... silly. And, IIRC, even PADDs had removable storage in the form of the Isolinear Chips. But even of they didn't they had the advantage of being "networked" with the Enterprise computer so anywhere on the ship, and presumably anywhere in the Federation, a person with a PADD could accsess their personal files. With the iPad, saving an internet file-storage service there's no way to get a personal file from your PC to the iPad (that I am aware of.)

So if the HP "PADD" can have a flash-drive connected to it that gives it a huge advantage over the iPad, a person can move his files from the computer to the "PADD" without having to go through the extra step of putting the file onto a web service and then download it with the iPad.

And, where is it said that devices like these can't have USB ports, headphone jacks or things of that nature?
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Old April 7 2010, 12:01 AM   #38
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

Well, price, for one. More capability can push up the pricetag.

But Apple also likes to push new approaches. They were the first to eliminate the floppy drive, now they're eliminating the USB port on the tablet....maybe that backfires, maybe it pushes things in a new direction again. Time will tell.

With the iPad, saving an internet file-storage service there's no way to get a personal file from your PC to the iPad (that I am aware of.)
I'm not terribly familiar with the specs of these things, but couldn't you just remotely log into your computer over a wireless LAN and copy whatever that way?
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Old April 7 2010, 12:07 AM   #39
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

Lindley wrote: View Post
Well, price, for one. More capability can push up the pricetag.

But Apple also likes to push new approaches. They were the first to eliminate the floppy drive, now they're eliminating the USB port on the tablet....maybe that backfires, maybe it pushes things in a new direction again. Time will tell.

With the iPad, saving an internet file-storage service there's no way to get a personal file from your PC to the iPad (that I am aware of.)
I'm not terribly familiar with the specs of these things, but couldn't you just remotely log into your computer over a wireless LAN and copy whatever that way?
Yeah, I suppose you could. Still seems to me that a USB port would be useful in some situations where maybe a LAN wouldn't be feasable. It just seems like an oversight that shouldn't have occured. Removable/movable physical storage just seems like one of those things that should've been on the iPad from the begining.
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Old April 7 2010, 12:19 AM   #40
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

Lindley wrote: View Post
Well, price, for one. More capability can push up the pricetag.
So can having the i in the front of it. I seriously doubt that they couldn't come out with one if they chose to for the same price.
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Old April 7 2010, 12:39 AM   #41
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

Shaw wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Microsoft's attempts at vendor lock-in are pretty piss-poor, in my opinion. Windows Activation aside--because it is so easily bypassed--Microsoft doesn't control what software can and can't run on Windows. They don't require you to purchase a license from them to develop Windows software, and so forth.

Any Linux or BSD flavor would, of course, be preferable for commodity PC hardware if you really want to avoid even the appearance of vendor lock-in.
I haven't used Windows for years, but from what I've read about how Microsoft treats users and developers on Windows, I'm surprised (shocked) that you would use such a platform.
Eh, I have to use it for work, plus I play a lot of games, so Windows is about all there is for that. WINE just doesn't cut it. I use Linux a lot, too, but Windows would be hard to abandon completely--not so much for anything the OS offers but rather the software that's tied to it. I feel no urge to upgrade past XP, though.

To my knowledge, Apple (nor any other computer/software company) can hold a candle to the things that Microsoft has both attempted and/or accomplished. And I've personally seen Microsoft bare down on people for software piracy who weren't even using Microsoft products.
I'm not claiming Microsoft isn't sleazy as hell--they are. They're just supremely incompetent when it comes to locking people in, too. I have not had any experiences with being accused of pirating MS products, though, so I can't speak to that.

But I'm curious... you seem to be holding Apple's standards for iPhone/iPad development up against Windows rather than something like the Xbox. I don't know about Windows, but I can write software for a Mac without paying a single cent. On the other hand, I don't see the Xbox as an open (license free) system for development.
You brought up MS, and I was just responding to that. However, you're right--it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. I would compare the iPhone to the other smartphone platforms out there:

1. Blackberry -- I've never had one, but what little I've seen tells me there's a lot of vendor lock-in there, not least because you're forced to use RIM's network.
2. Windows Mobile -- Easily the crappiest smartphone OS I've ever had the displeasure to use. The less said about it, the better.
3. Palm -- I have a Palm Centro right now. There are tons of hacks and free programs out there for it. I love that 10+ years' worth of software still works on it. I have not used the new webOS, since I don't have a pre.
4. Android -- I've played with this a little bit and I find it very promising, and Google doesn't seem to be keen on locking it down--rather, they want its openness to help it thrive. My next phone may well be an Android-based unit.

As far as I know, it is only Apple that has created a system whereby only "approved" applications may be distributed to smartphones. I don't have a problem with that in and of itself, but they also make it the only source for iPhone apps, unless you want to jailbreak your phone which can cause all sorts of other problems.

Heck, I could actually start development of Mac software on a Linux or BSD system using GNUstep as a foundation as GNUstep was originally based on the OpenStep Specifications, which in turn are what Cocoa APIs (used in both Mac and iPhone environments) are based on.
But you cannot develop iPhone/iPad software on anything but a bona fide Intel Mac.

So are you holding Apple to a higher standard than Microsoft? I mean shouldn't there be just one standard for everything?
You can write Windows software on any other OS, too, though God only knows why someone would want to.

It is funny... Apple is just some company, and really doesn't have the ability to effect anyone's lives if those people don't want it to. Microsoft has it's hands in nearly every aspect of our world (and by world, I mean most countries). Microsoft is much like the banks that were too big to fail... no matter what, the world couldn't survive if Microsoft disappeared at this point.
I don't care what Apple does with their computers, really. I care more about what they do in the mobile/handheld market, because I actually buy such devices, and I don't like Apple's tendency to lock things down. Apple is a trendsetter in this area, too, and I don't want to see others following their lead.

Literally, Apple doesn't know anything about vender lock-in compared to Microsoft, and Microsoft has been willing at times to pay multi-million dollar fines daily to protect that lock-in. I've seen Apple do some bad things... but they are still amateurs at lock-in.
I think we are concerned about different kinds of lock-in, and that's where we're diverging. Microsoft does not control what apps wind up on Windows--or their smartphones, for that matter. Apple provides a single source for iPhone/iPad apps, and only Apple-approved software may be distributed.

Imagine if you bought a computer with Windows on it--you've already paid for the license--and then, you want to develop an application. Now, imagine Microsoft gets to tell you whether or not you're allowed to develop and distribute said app! That would piss me off. This is what Apple does with the iPhone.

Microsoft is sleazy as all hell, but they don't act as gatekeepers deciding who can and can't develop Windows software. Apple doesn't do this on the Mac either, so why they insist on doing it for the iPhone and iPad is beyond me. I can understand the ease-of-use argument, but then why forbid all other routes of deployment outside the App Store?
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Old April 7 2010, 02:40 AM   #42
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

While Apple has denied programs on a few occasions for fear of competition, the largest factor has been from fear of lawsuits.

That to me is actually the bigger issue of purchasing all apps from apple.
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Old April 7 2010, 02:45 AM   #43
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

Data Holmes wrote: View Post
So, some of the specs and price for this new HP is leaking out:

1.6GHz Atom processor
32GB of storage on board storage
8.9-inch, 1024x600 screen
5 hours of battery life

.
The only real negative that I see here is the battery life.

One of the things that truly has surprised me about the ipad is its battery life. I assume when they said 10 hours battery life that would be for things like music or reading. But I've managed more then ten hours playing video off the same charge, that amazed me. And I was reading a review site of music of being over 30 plus hours with 70% charge still left.

The storage size on both device doesn't really bother me, as no single unit is ever (at least not any time soon) going to come close to 4 TB I currently have backup. But unless your personal needs are heavy on apps (mine aren't but everyone's different) I would think in most cases (and certainly with the battery life shown above) that unless you were playing a ripped bluray media 32 should be fine.
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Old April 7 2010, 05:29 AM   #44
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Mr. B wrote: View Post
It's like an iPad... that you can plug a thumb drive in to... Awesome!
And do multiple things with at once, and probably even actualy change the batteries on when they die for good (rather than backing up personal files and shipping your device away and being without it for a several weeks while your multi-hundred dollar battery change takes place.)
Well, for one, there is no battery replacement. If the battery is going, apple replaces the entire ipad. Takes about a week, you mail it to them, they mail a new one back to you.

As for the multiple things at once, all things point to multitasking being in the new iphone os 4.x which is being announced Thursday, with roll out some time late june or early july.

This HP device looks a little more like it in this market for portable computers.
Indeed.

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
DH's comparisson of this device and what maks a "true" device of this nature with the metric of TNG's PADD is... silly. And, IIRC, even PADDs had removable storage in the form of the Isolinear Chips.
it wasn't really an easily removable item on trek's padd, and we have nothing comparable with the concept of isolinear chips at this point either. The only thing in the works that I know of at this time is Phase-change Memory, which uses a form of glass as the memory but we are still a ways of from it being a practical flash replacement. But it does show promise.

But even of they didn't they had the advantage of being "networked" with the Enterprise computer so anywhere on the ship, and presumably anywhere in the Federation, a person with a PADD could accsess their personal files. With the iPad, saving an internet file-storage service there's no way to get a personal file from your PC to the iPad (that I am aware of.)
There are already apps out there that let you access your home computer remotly over the internet from both your iPhone and iPad. This one http://www.iteleportmobile.com/ seems to be the most popular from what I can tell. Works with both mac and windows computers.

So if the HP "PADD" can have a flash-drive connected to it that gives it a huge advantage over the iPad, a person can move his files from the computer to the "PADD" without having to go through the extra step of putting the file onto a web service and then download it with the iPad.
You can direct transfer files to and from the iPad via wifi or bluetooth from any wifi or bluetooth equipped device... No real extra steps there. And with remote access apps there is no need to transfer any files to the device to access them to begin with.

And, where is it said that devices like these can't have USB ports, headphone jacks or things of that nature?
the iPad has a headphone jack. I never said they couldn't have USB, just that for what these new devices seem to be targeted at doing, usb ports are an "extra" above and beyond it's core design intention. A want, not a need. And I have no problem with a wants being accessories sold separately, which I can buy to add an added feature to my devices. You don't always need "everything and the kitchen sink" built in to a device.

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Data Holmes wrote: View Post
Brent wrote: View Post

Um, define a true "PADD"?

I don't think the comparison should be to a fictional Star Trek PADD, I think the comparison should be the to the iPad, which is its clear competition.

IF the specs you posted are correct, then it seems like it will compete very well with the iPad. Certainly it has the capability to have more features than the first gen iPad.
I'm not comparing it to the trek device, I just think that the trek nomenclature is correct for this new field of device. It is a Personal Access Display/Device. Not a true computer, like netbooks, tablet pc's, UMPC's ect. It is simply an electronic device which primary function is to allow access to media and content, with limited on board storage primarily for native applications and short term storage of media content for off network access, from a central "library" computer, media server, or the internet.
Why would I want a device like that when I could have one that does the same thing but is also built well for storage and has flash drive capacity? What's the point of matching a device to something that you think could be cool when you can make it do even more?
First off, no one is telling you you should want such a device. My questions are as follows, Why would you need such a device to be built for such high storage when it doesn't need it thanks to remote access? Is flash drive capacity necessary for a library computer access device? Why do you need a device to do more than it's designed to do, I mean is your car amphibious? Does your microwave make and dispense ice as well? Will your refrigerator heat your dinner?

The iPad really is a remote access device, not a storage device, not a "mini computer", not a laptop replacement.
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Old April 7 2010, 02:56 PM   #45
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Re: HP's competition for the iPad!

About a year ago I finally put two and two together regarding why Apple does things like leaving out the USB port, or SD drive slot.

Apple is a _hardware_ company. If they leave out things like Multi-Tasking, a USB port, SD slot, or a front facing camera, they can then wait a year then launch a "revolutionary Multi-tasking iPad" or the iPad-SD, or "game changing iPad video conferencing app; only for the iPad-video". And sell new SKU's of the iPad with the hardware to support these features.
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