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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 3 2010, 11:57 PM   #271
lawman
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. And that's just what they did.
Sure, I agree that was what they wanted. But you can't actually do that (that's why it's an aphorism, you know?), so it's no surprise to me that they fell short.

I honestly think they could have attracted just as many new ticket-buyers, and offended far fewer existing fans, if they'd just opted for a clean reboot. Could've still said sub rosa that it was a "parallel universe," but they wouldn't have had any stray continuity issues to navigate around.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
The characters were talking about the timeline wanting to repair itself...
I've seen it described elsewhere as a quantum mechanical fate function...
Pseudoscientific lipstick on a pig. I agree with Temis that it's ludicrous blather, of a sort that Trek has mostly avoided in the past.
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Old April 4 2010, 12:09 AM   #272
Set Harth
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

lawman wrote: View Post
I agree with Temis that it's ludicrous blather, of a sort that Trek has mostly avoided in the past.
While wallowing in ludicrous time travel.

Temis the Vorta wrote:
That's ludicrous and also contrived, but not something that Star Trek in particular has indulged in so much
It's the "will of the Force" from Star Wars.

lawman wrote: View Post
with all the talk about "destiny," both in the film and in interviews
It's not in the film. It was left out. Where that word appears in the script it's used in an entirely different context which merely expresses that the timeline has changed from what would have happened without Nero's influence.

Last edited by Set Harth; April 4 2010 at 03:50 AM.
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Old April 4 2010, 10:02 AM   #273
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
The characters were talking about the timeline wanting to repair itself, as though the timeline is sentient. That's ludicrous and also contrived.
Is it? Many years ago, I heard (or read) a SF writer saying that "time is a river" and, just as a river may try to recreate its original path if blocked, then so may a timeline try to correct itself as best it can. I even used it in a ST fanfic way back in the mid 80s, based on that line.

lawman wrote: View Post
offended far fewer existing fans, if they'd just opted for a clean reboot.
Seems to me they offended very few fans as it was.

I'm still surprised that the film is celebrated by as many as it is. A wonderful thrill for me, since I naively expected the same universal reaction for ST:TMP, but for me, as a newbie fan in 1980, I felt as if I was surrounded by hostiles for many, many months. They began to calm down around the time of ST II's premiere.
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Old April 4 2010, 04:05 PM   #274
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

How bad was it around the time of TMP's premiere? Given how the film is perceived by the general public these days, I could imagine an almost palpable sense of "That's it???"

I was very scared that Trek '09 would engender the same reaction, and frankly have been floored and gratified to see Trek become popular again, enough so that I will forgive some of the film's shortcomings (provided the sequel doesn't exacerbate them). I'm not particularly sure that the movie deserves all of the praise it's received, but the alternative, a real franchise-killer, is just depressing to consider.
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Old April 4 2010, 08:37 PM   #275
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
The characters were talking about the timeline wanting to repair itself, as though the timeline is sentient. That's ludicrous and also contrived.
Is it? Many years ago, I heard (or read) a SF writer saying that "time is a river" and, just as a river may try to recreate its original path if blocked, then so may a timeline try to correct itself as best it can. I even used it in a ST fanfic way back in the mid 80s, based on that line.
Mmmmm, okay. Like every other fictional element, the "timeline wants to follow a certain path" could be used well or poorly. But it's in that class of plot devices like "destiny" and "the One who will do blah blah and make all things right again" that I find is far more often used badly than well, because such things are too tempting as a means for getting a writer out of a plotline jam or making an otherwise pedestrian story seem "profound."
It's the "will of the Force" from Star Wars.
Star Wars mysticism is not something I want to see creeping into Star Trek. Not that the Force was touted too heavily as having a will of its own - in the OT, you could interpret it as a neutral force of nature or a diety or somewhere inbetween. As for the PT, I just tuned out of most of what they were babbling.

Last edited by Temis the Vorta; April 4 2010 at 08:54 PM.
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Old April 4 2010, 08:53 PM   #276
Set Harth
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

It's no more ridiculous than any other religious or quasi-religious belief, but at least we can say that it was left out of the film.
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Old April 4 2010, 08:58 PM   #277
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

I seem to recall a snippet of dialogue talking about the timeline wanting to repair itself...did I imagine it? Maybe influenced by the discussions here?

Anyway, I think those guys managed to have their cake and eat it, too, because they made enough money that they'll get to do more movies however they like, and that's the only definition of success that matters in Hollywood or even in real life.
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Old April 4 2010, 09:09 PM   #278
Set Harth
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
I seem to recall a snippet of dialogue talking about the timeline wanting to repair itself...did I imagine it?
It was apparently discarded material intended by the writers as one way of looking at the situation with the seeming coincidences/contrivances in the film.

Wikipedia wrote:
Figuring out ways to get the crew together required some contrivances, which Orci and Kurtzman wanted to explain from old Spock as a way of the timeline mending itself, highlighting the theme of destiny. The line was very difficult to write and was ultimately cut out.
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Old April 4 2010, 09:54 PM   #279
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
I seem to recall a snippet of dialogue talking about the timeline wanting to repair itself...did I imagine it? Maybe influenced by the discussions here?
It has been discussed here before. IIRC, the line was filmed as part of the ice cave scene (significantly longer, as originally written) but does not appear in the finished movie.

http://www.trektoday.com/content/200...cenes-clarify/
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Old April 4 2010, 10:11 PM   #280
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

DonIago wrote: View Post
How bad was it around the time of TMP's premiere? Given how the film is perceived by the general public these days, I could imagine an almost palpable sense of "That's it???"
Essentially.

Imagine how dire it was for fans like me, attracted to the cinema by a huge-budget reunion show of a TV series I'd only really ever heard about, and seen a few cartoon episodes of? I stumbled across organised ST fandom a few weeks after being blown away by the movie, and immediately found about 200 kindred spirits, but most of them angry/disappointed/betrayed by ST:TMP - and some even telling me that I'll never be a "true Star Trek fan" because I wasn't there in the 60s.

I hve fanzines and letterzines here, from 1980, where people plotted angrily how they could shunt TMP (and its ugly Klingon "munchkins") into an alternate timeline where it could be forgotten. How dare Kirk leave his ship for the Admiralty? How dare Spock try to purge his human half? How dare McCoy leave kirk's side for all those years? How dare the SPFX guys change the Enterprise and the transporter effect? Those uniforms! Where were the Tellarites? And so on!

There were two camps re Gene Roddenberry though: "Fire him and let someone else do another film!" and "I refuse to see a sequel unless GR is exec producer". Controversy and polarized opinions over a ST movie are certainly nothing new.

However, there were plenty fans who embraced TMP - and their frequent returns to the big screen no doubt helped to improve the box office take. Even many of the detractors saw the movie lots of times.

TMP and JJ's film are still my favourite movies of all time.
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Old April 5 2010, 12:47 AM   #281
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Favorite Trek movies? Or favorite movies, period?
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Old April 5 2010, 06:23 AM   #282
Devon
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Seems to me they offended very few fans as it was.
Exactly. Considering how diverse the fanbase is, there are going to be (and have been) some "offended. " Some installments to varying degrees. This one didn't to any significant degree worth noting (most installments didn't anyway.)
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Old April 5 2010, 10:47 AM   #283
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

lawman wrote: View Post
Favorite Trek movies? Or favorite movies, period?
As I've said many times, TMP and JJ's film are my two favourite movies of all time. Period.
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Old November 13 2013, 04:55 AM   #284
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Who in the Star Trek universe is callous enough to kill one billion people to explore the relationship between Spock and Kirk?

Obviously Spock wouldn't be that callous. Logically he would slingshot around the sun or travel to the Time Portal on another planet. The odds of old Spock and young Kirk happening on the same planet at nearly the same moment are astronomical.

Only one conclusion, old Spock is not really Spock.
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