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Old March 14 2010, 09:54 PM   #76
TIN_MAN
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Mytran wrote: View Post
It's interesting that FJ made use of a much larger shuttlebay than Jefferies:

FJ did little more than transpose the Jefferies drawing of the forced perspective set, so he got off on the wrong foot right from the get-go (not a slam; it's a relatively recent deduction that the drawing was of the miniature set and not a straight cross section of the full-size section of the ship).
Well, we don't really know whether FJ realized the Jefferies drawing was of the forced perspctive set or not, I suspect that he did, but in any case, something like what he (FJ) drew would be necessary to come even close to matching what we see on screen. Especially when we consider the relationship of the turntable elevator to the alcoves on the sides of the bay, and then this inturn with the available space below for said elevator to lower into (remember, it has to clear that fantail).
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Old March 15 2010, 06:39 AM   #77
Captain Robert April
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

I wouldn't characterize it as "three years of episodes" since it was only filmed once and reused four times.

As for what FJ knew and when he knew it, I think it's safe to say that he had no idea it was of a forced perspective miniature set, there was nothing in TMoST to indicate it was, and I'd say most of fandom didn't know (and a lot probably still don't) and besides, it provided a lot more room than ending it at the pylons, so he probably would've gone with it anyway.
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Old March 15 2010, 06:29 PM   #78
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

My take on the flight deck is that I wouldn't necessarily make it as long as FJ, but I probably wouldn't make it as short as some others have.
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Old March 15 2010, 06:59 PM   #79
TIN_MAN
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
My take on the flight deck is that I wouldn't necessarily make it as long as FJ, but I probably wouldn't make it as short as some others have.
Agreed, there's a happy medium there somewhere.
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Old March 15 2010, 09:44 PM   #80
Captain Robert April
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

I'd say no further than halfway into the pylon. That should leave enough room for the necessary conduits to and from the nacelles, as well as some sort of conveyance apparatus to get up there (not enough room for a turbolift; probably some sort of conveyor belt with hand and foot holds, like John Byrne set up in his "Crew" miniseries).
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Old March 15 2010, 11:07 PM   #81
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
I'd say no further than halfway into the pylon. That should leave enough room for the necessary conduits to and from the nacelles, as well as some sort of conveyance apparatus to get up there (not enough room for a turbolift; probably some sort of conveyor belt with hand and foot holds, like John Byrne set up in his "Crew" miniseries).
I just ordered this trade from Amazon.ca yesterday evening. That and the Romulan: Pawns Of War. A friend highly recommended them.
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Old March 16 2010, 04:51 AM   #82
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
I wouldn't characterize it as "three years of episodes" since it was only filmed once and reused four times.
Distinction noted. I kinda wished they re-used those hallway scenes four times - it'd save me the trouble of figuring out how the hallways connect to the hanger or flight deck
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Old March 16 2010, 10:38 AM   #83
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

At least the "foyer" part of the set was fairly consistent (well, it appeared the same twice!)
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Old October 1 2012, 04:45 PM   #84
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Gentlemen,

although I'm very late to the party, many thanx for an in-depth coverage on the "hangar bay" issue (and some special thanks to Mytran for posting this close-up picture of the original Smithsonian Enterprise which enabled me - after more than 30 long years - to finally read the small print next to the saucer section's yellow airlock hatch - which I believe this to be).

I, too, believe there is a distinction between the "flight deck" and a "hangar deck" (if memory serves the fake Kirk wanted to have the crew assembled on the flight deck to witness the executions in "Turnabout Intruder").

One of the problems, please correct me where I'm in error, seems to be that the hangar deck is rather high and therefore it seems difficult to match the location of the circular shuttlepad in the live-action scenes with the circular shuttlepad of the flight deck VFX scenes because of the Enterprise's stern architecture - resulting in a rather long flight deck space to vertically allign both shuttlepads.

Question: Why do the shuttlepads have to be vertically alligned?

We have angled-in, diagonal Jefferies Tubes all over the ship, I have recently proposed a diagonal main (express) turboshaft running from (main) deck 2 through the neck section to the lower decks and I think to resolve the hangar deck-flight deck shuttlepad problem the easiest solution are diagonal hydraulics (or whatever) that lift the shuttlepad in an angle from the hangar to the flight deck.

And it is because of the diagonal lift, the shuttle rests upon it at a 90° angle so it doesn't touch the frame of the flight deck while it is uplifted... (for all practical purposes, i.e. Spock leaving in "Immunity Syndrome", it would otherwise make more sense if the shuttle is already in its launch position in the hangar bay and we'd be just seeing the shuttle's stern from the hangar deck door).

Another exterior design element of the TOS Enterprise is the stern rectangular red frame just below the flight deck. It's the same kind of red frame you'll find at the underside of the nacelles and the top of the impulse deck (L-shaped). I used to think it's some kind of maintenance hatch but now I rather believe it's a blow away emergency hatch. In an abandon-ship scenario the shuttlecraft could also come into use (think DS9 "Emissary") but with a ship wide power failure you probably couldn't open the flight deck doors, so it could make sense just to blow the hatch ("2001" + "Enemy Mine" style) and use the shuttles' systems to leave the ship - from the hangar bay, that is.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; October 2 2012 at 11:39 AM.
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Old October 1 2012, 08:45 PM   #85
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
the hangar deck is rather high
One reason for a three deck high flight deck would be too accommodate space craft larger than the standard shuttles that we saw on the show.

Bigger shuttles (and small starships) with double decks would require more room, this would explain the height and width of the aft "clamshell" doors, which are much larger than a shuttle needs.

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Old October 1 2012, 10:44 PM   #86
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

I've also thought about a diagonal lift, but haven't worked out the details to see if it would actually work. The thing to remember it that the farther back the flight deck is the less vertical room you have between the edge of the lift and the inside curvature of the fantail, and it'd make for a tight squeeze.
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Old October 2 2012, 03:13 AM   #87
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
I've also thought about a diagonal lift, but haven't worked out the details to see if it would actually work. The thing to remember it that the farther back the flight deck is the less vertical room you have between the edge of the lift and the inside curvature of the fantail, and it'd make for a tight squeeze.
Yes. I tried that approach and found the angle not friendly to the boxy shuttles, especially given the size of the opening for the elevator as seen from the flight deck shots.

The other thing is that in JTB and TIS is that we see the back wall behind the shuttle while in the hangar deck and it looks vertical, IMHO.
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Old October 2 2012, 01:06 PM   #88
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Yes. I tried that approach and found the angle not friendly to the boxy shuttles, especially given the size of the opening for the elevator as seen from the flight deck shots."
If you uplift the shuttle from the hangar bay to the flight deck in the position the shuttle had when it was first boarded, it seems an angle less than 45° is possible to deliver it to the flight deck without the hull of the shuttle being scratched by the opening. I'm enclosing this shot just to illustrate the ratio between shuttle width and shuttlepad diameter: http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu..._Seven_020.JPG

It would, indeed, be a problem if the shuttle were uplifted with the bow first, already facing the clamshell space doors (again, just to illustrate the ratio) as the stern would hit the frame of the flight deck shuttlepad:
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu..._Seven_014.JPG

(And if you were to take the shuttle down to the hangar just the way it landed, the angled-in bow of the shuttle would not get in touch with the frame opening of the flight deck and therefore work nicely with a diagonal shuttlepad lift.)

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"The other thing is that in JTB and TIS we see the back wall behind the shuttle while in the hangar deck and it looks vertical, IMHO."
Most likely it is a vertical wall of the soundstage IRL, but one that's completely devoid of discernible features that would tell us that the producers intended it to be vertical.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...romehd0789.jpg

But if we were looking at a vertical wall and a vertical lift shuttlepad and considering the height of the hangar bay, would that not place the starboard side of Spock's shuttle outside of the ship given the unique architecture below the flight deck?

Bob

P.S. Does anybody know what the white text sign (?) on the port side of the flight deck says? (the one between the cargo container chutes or whatever these are).

P.P.S. Found this link with some unbelievably neat stuff and original VFX flight deck shots (including the text of the signs!):
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=34793
It also - in a multiple sense - puts the flight deck in perspective.
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; October 2 2012 at 02:44 PM.
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Old October 3 2012, 04:17 AM   #89
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

But if we were looking at a vertical wall and a vertical lift shuttlepad and considering the height of the hangar bay, would that not place the starboard side of Spock's shuttle outside of the ship given the unique architecture below the flight deck?
It only becomes a problem if the flight deck is very short which would move the elevator further back over the fantail. It is not a problem on a longer flight deck from my 3D experimenting:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=119751&page=12

I did try an angled lift but for the complications of the shuttle hitting the flight deck opening it just looked simpler to have it go straight up/down especially given how small the elevator is to begin with, IMHO.

But it is worth revisiting since I am planning to try again at that flight deck
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Old October 3 2012, 11:44 AM   #90
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"It only becomes a problem if the flight deck is very short which would move the elevator further back over the fantail. It is not a problem on a longer flight deck from my 3D experimenting:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=119751&page=12

I did try an angled lift but for the complications of the shuttle hitting the flight deck opening it just looked simpler to have it go straight up/down especially given how small the elevator is to begin with, IMHO."
I salute your increcible and most commendable approach to bless us with a 3D recreation of the Enterprise that strives for accuracy and authenticity (I feel like I have 300 years to catch up as I simultaneously work myself through this thread and it's a highly enjoyable and thrilling experience).

In that sense I feel that the original, rare b&w pictures (link in my previous post) with that exterior shot of the VFX flight deck model miniature allow us to conclude exactly the position of the shuttlepad (and where the flight deck ends) in relation to the rest of the ship.

A shorter flight deck could enable allignment of the "engineering section's" cathedral with the nacelles' pylons and one might consider rationalizing the circular corridors in the engineering hull to run around the 'probe cylinder', i.e. an extendable cylinder with mission specific probe launching tubes (TOS-R "Operation Annihilate" BBD's ).

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"But it is worth revisiting since I am planning to try again at that flight deck "
Words cannot express my gratitude. I'd also like to add that a diagonal, circular shuttlepad lift would also enable us to go down further to where I believe the freight deck would be. Thus cargo containers (TMP & WOK style) could be loaded onto the shuttlepad at the flight deck and could be lifted down all the way to the freight deck. One lift to serve two purposes.

One page 2, post # 20 of this thread you were wondering about the square porthole in "Conscience of the King". As its location (according to TOS-R) is on the ship's port side, which happens to be the side of the VFX Enterprise that had never been detailed, IMHO, there is no need to expect the port side to be symmetrical to the (well known) starboard side.
A quick look at the underside of the saucer section reveals that the windows aren't always symmetrical:http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicl...rise/ent66.jpg

And here, just for fun and detail clarity, another (behind the scenes) VFX shot of a shuttlecraft that just touched down on the flight deck:http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicl...lileoMod06.jpg

Bob
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