RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,914
Posts: 5,331,213
Members: 24,560
Currently online: 511
Newest member: jakesmit44543

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Inquisition
By: Michelle on Jul 12

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 12 2010, 02:04 AM   #61
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
Don't forget the ST:5 1701-A shuttle bay was much more like the one from the series, so it's logical to conlude that surrounding areas would be much more similar as well (whatever they may be?). Hope this helps?
I think the ST:5 version works for the TMP ship, but not for the TOS ship. If you discard all the hallway scenes from "Journey To Babel" and "Immunity Syndrome" and maybe even "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" it would be possible to imagine the TMP/TFF setup on the TOS ship, IMHO.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12 2010, 10:56 AM   #62
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

The ST5 shuttlebay is really short. No wonder Sulu was worried about flying it in manually!
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12 2010, 11:51 AM   #63
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Pardon my quick'n'dirty brutalizing of Probert's familiar sketch:



Basically, this is how I see all the three ships being essentially the same. Each has this big cargo cavity in the middle of the secondary hull, although only the TOS ship has it extending down to the circular ventral hatch. Each has three elevators, but only in the TMP version are they exposed, thanks to advances in forcefield tech. In the others, they inhabit a separate compartment where shuttlecraft are kept at readiness, behind a pair of rolling doors (with a turbolift between them in ST5:TFF, and a turbolift or corridor or perhaps both between them in TOS).

Only the TMP version also strips off the inner side walls of the flight deck, eliminating the corridors beyond (and substituting workbee hives). The other two have the transverse observation deck, with windows both into the flight deck and into the paired hangar-elevators.

Oh, and the TMP and ST5:TFF ships have vertical warp cores, a bit farther aft than Probert postulated, while the TOS ship has some other sort of setup above the cargo area plus horizontal leads to the stems of the pylons.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12 2010, 03:10 PM   #64
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Timo, just to clarify for the TOS version - how are you handling the hallways and foyer that lead into the shuttle area? I've approached this problem in 3D and there are only a couple of good ways to do it. But if you're not using them, then you've got more options. Just curious

Timo wrote: View Post
Pardon my quick'n'dirty brutalizing of Probert's familiar sketch:



Basically, this is how I see all the three ships being essentially the same. Each has this big cargo cavity in the middle of the secondary hull, although only the TOS ship has it extending down to the circular ventral hatch. Each has three elevators, but only in the TMP version are they exposed, thanks to advances in forcefield tech. In the others, they inhabit a separate compartment where shuttlecraft are kept at readiness, behind a pair of rolling doors (with a turbolift between them in ST5:TFF, and a turbolift or corridor or perhaps both between them in TOS).

Only the TMP version also strips off the inner side walls of the flight deck, eliminating the corridors beyond (and substituting workbee hives). The other two have the transverse observation deck, with windows both into the flight deck and into the paired hangar-elevators.

Oh, and the TMP and ST5:TFF ships have vertical warp cores, a bit farther aft than Probert postulated, while the TOS ship has some other sort of setup above the cargo area plus horizontal leads to the stems of the pylons.

Timo Saloniemi
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12 2010, 03:12 PM   #65
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Mytran wrote: View Post
The ST5 shuttlebay is really short. No wonder Sulu was worried about flying it in manually!
And overly tall too (or just not that wide?) It seems that the set builders missed a decimal or something as the shuttlebay doors and the whole set seems stretched vertically. Weird!
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2010, 12:10 AM   #66
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

An interesting thought. Evidently the designers of the TMP refit weren't overly concerned that the shuttlebay extended beneath the where the support pylons connect to the secondary hull. With that in mind then why couldn't the TOS shuttlebay do the same?

Recall the only detail of the shuttlebay's fore bulkhead are the drawings in TMoST and FJ's Constitution blueprints and tech manual. That fore bulkhead is never actually shown onscreen in TOS. Yeah, we see it in TFF, but I would discount that since the TOS E is a completely different ship.

Here's another old composite for the fun of it.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2010, 02:38 AM   #67
Shaw
Commodore
 
Shaw's Avatar
 
Location: Twin Cities
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
An interesting thought. Evidently the designers of the TMP refit weren't overly concerned that the shuttlebay extended beneath the where the support pylons connect to the secondary hull. With that in mind then why couldn't the TOS shuttlebay do the same?

Recall the only detail of the shuttlebay's fore bulkhead are the drawings in TMoST and FJ's Constitution blueprints and tech manual. That fore bulkhead is never actually shown onscreen in TOS. Yeah, we see it in TFF, but I would discount that since the TOS E is a completely different ship.
Well, while it is true that we never saw the forward bulkhead in TOS, Jefferies had intended it to be there and had a specific length of flight deck in mind. It is one of the data points I've collected together in my research.


Granted, my research is based on how Jefferies saw the Enterprise rather than what was seen on screen (in TOS) or listed in canonical sources (all screen references in Trek?), so I don't expect anyone to follow my lead on this... but I thought I'd throw it into the mix (along with my very early sketch of the shuttle facilities).



Looking through this thread, it is interesting that anyone would want to impose aircraft carrier standards on the Enterprise shuttlecraft facilities when there are far better (closer) models within the navy.

When I was growing up in Coronado, the ships that most people noticed were the carriers, which were interesting for me because it gave me a sizing reference. But when looking at operations like the handling of small craft, I thought that the command ship USS Coronado was a better comparison. Granted, the flight deck of the Coronado is more than twice the length of the one on the Enterprise, but at the time it was the best real world comparison I had on hand (for limited small craft operations).



Just thought I'd share some thought on the topic.
Shaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2010, 04:53 AM   #68
Birdog
Commander
 
Birdog's Avatar
 
Location: Birdog
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Shaw wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
An interesting thought. Evidently the designers of the TMP refit weren't overly concerned that the shuttlebay extended beneath the where the support pylons connect to the secondary hull. With that in mind then why couldn't the TOS shuttlebay do the same?

Recall the only detail of the shuttlebay's fore bulkhead are the drawings in TMoST and FJ's Constitution blueprints and tech manual. That fore bulkhead is never actually shown onscreen in TOS. Yeah, we see it in TFF, but I would discount that since the TOS E is a completely different ship.
Well, while it is true that we never saw the forward bulkhead in TOS, Jefferies had intended it to be there and had a specific length of flight deck in mind. It is one of the data points I've collected together in my research.


Granted, my research is based on how Jefferies saw the Enterprise rather than what was seen on screen (in TOS) or listed in canonical sources (all screen references in Trek?), so I don't expect anyone to follow my lead on this... but I thought I'd throw it into the mix (along with my very early sketch of the shuttle facilities).



Looking through this thread, it is interesting that anyone would want to impose aircraft carrier standards on the Enterprise shuttlecraft facilities when there are far better (closer) models within the navy.

When I was growing up in Coronado, the ships that most people noticed were the carriers, which were interesting for me because it gave me a sizing reference. But when looking at operations like the handling of small craft, I thought that the command ship USS Coronado was a better comparison. Granted, the flight deck of the Coronado is more than twice the length of the one on the Enterprise, but at the time it was the best real world comparison I had on hand (for limited small craft operations).



Just thought I'd share some thought on the topic.
I'd like to take that thread of looking for a different model and say you need to look at a Ticonderoga class cruiser as your model for air ops for the big E. A Tico can only operate one of it's two birds at a time as the deck is only large enough for one aircraft. The other is stored in the hangar or airborne.


You don't need to handle your support craft quickly as that's not your primary mission.

I would imagine that embark/debark of the shuttles happens in the hangar and they are launched form the landing bay which would be two seperate but connected facilities. How they are placed in the hull is still up in the air.
Birdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2010, 10:02 AM   #69
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
...Here's another old composite for the fun of it...
That's great - I particularly like the way you've rescaled the crewman next to the shuttle, those crafts were BIG

Shaw wrote: View Post
Well, while it is true that we never saw the forward bulkhead in TOS, Jefferies had intended it to be there and had a specific length of flight deck in mind. It is one of the data points I've collected together in my research.

Granted, my research is based on how Jefferies saw the Enterprise rather than what was seen on screen (in TOS) or listed in canonical sources (all screen references in Trek?), so I don't expect anyone to follow my lead on this... but I thought I'd throw it into the mix...
Clearly at some point the decision was made make the shuttlebay larger than Jefferies had initially allowed for - probably for visual impact.
In fact, shuttles and auxiliary craft have gained greater importance with each new updating of Trek - in TMP the facility is opened up into the massive cargo bay and throughout the movies they're always taking shuttles to board ship. In TNG shuttles are used as private excursion vehicles (despite being limited to sub light!) and in VOY as scouting and survey vessels.
With the way TOS was originally envisioned, a small shuttlebay does work (as Birdog said, it's not your primary mission so devoting a high percentage of your ship to it doesn't make a lot of sense). And with transporters and sensor beams, there a very few occasions where it would be necessary to risk going outside the mothership (another of Jefferies’ concerns). However, the way Trek ended up strongly points to an enlarged shuttlebay facility (if going by on-screen evidence, as opposed to author intent).
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2010, 11:33 AM   #70
Shaw
Commodore
 
Shaw's Avatar
 
Location: Twin Cities
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Mytran wrote: View Post
Shaw wrote: View Post
... so I don't expect anyone to follow my lead on this... but I thought I'd throw it into the mix...
Clearly at some point the decision was made make the shuttlebay larger than Jefferies had initially allowed for - probably for visual impact.
Not during the production of TOS... and as Jefferies was asked to revisit the Enterprise in the Summer/Fall of 1977 (well after both the Joseph Technical Manual and Booklet of General Plans had been released) and didn't feel any need to diverge from his original view of the hangar bay, it doesn't seem that he considered it an issue.

Your response was predictable (having read the thread) and was why I hadn't offered any comment before and said what I said about not expecting anyone to follow my lead on this. I was just offering the historical data on the subject in case anyone was interested, and not my opinions (other than the comment on using current carriers as a model for shuttle craft operations).

The best person to direct comments to on that data would be Jefferies, not me. I didn't design this stuff (any more than anyone not part of TOS production... including those who worked on later Trek), so I accept no credit or blame.


However, the way Trek ended up strongly points to an enlarged shuttlebay facility (if going by on-screen evidence, as opposed to author intent).
Of course the way Trek ended up is Trek other than TOS. But if we are talking about STXI, then you are absolutely correct.
Shaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2010, 01:41 PM   #71
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Shaw wrote: View Post
Mytran wrote: View Post
Shaw wrote: View Post
... so I don't expect anyone to follow my lead on this... but I thought I'd throw it into the mix...
Clearly at some point the decision was made make the shuttlebay larger than Jefferies had initially allowed for - probably for visual impact.
Not during the production of TOS...
Except that the decision was made (by someone) to approve & build a much larger shuttlebay set than could actually fit in the space behind the pylon bulkheads.

If I could make use of Shaw's diagram, this is how the shuttlebay would appear if confined to that space:


In terms of a small dedicated facility, not often used (such as was discussed with respect to the Ticonderoga class cruiser) this makes good sense. However, compare that to what we actually got in "The Galileo Seven":

Granted, the set was built with forced perspective, bu it's clearly a much bigger room! As I said earlier, I suspect this was done for dramatic reasons.
Shaw wrote: View Post
Jefferies was asked to revisit the Enterprise in the Summer/Fall of 1977 (well after both the Joseph Technical Manual and Booklet of General Plans had been released) and didn't feel any need to diverge from his original view of the hangar bay, it doesn't seem that he considered it an issue.
It's interesting that FJ made use of a much larger shuttlebay than Jefferies:


FJ not withstanding, there's clearly two Enterprises here - the one Jefferies intended, and the one we got on our screens.
The Jeffriesprise looks to hold together better in terms of structure (at least from a 20th Century engineering standpoint) and is more common sense in terms of what goes where and how big it is.
The TVprise has been altered with respect to directors' choice of shots and use of set (such as corridors leading into the the shuttlebay) and limitations on what could actually be build on a TV budget, plus the "visual impact" choices of certain designs (larger shuttlebay, bridge orientation etc).

Last edited by Mytran; March 13 2010 at 01:59 PM.
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2010, 02:49 PM   #72
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Shaw wrote: View Post
Looking through this thread, it is interesting that anyone would want to impose aircraft carrier standards on the Enterprise shuttlecraft facilities when there are far better (closer) models within the navy.
Hehe - I know, counter-intuitive. (Actually, recreating the Enterprise in 3D based primarily on what's been presented on screen has been interesting! )

I picked aircraft carrier standards for these reasons (based on visual cues and reviewing the episodes where shuttles are involved)

1. Shuttles typically come in on a narrow landing corridor. Even at slow speeds, the final part of the corridor is still constricted to the narrow entrance.
2. The control booths at the entrance are a collision hazard.
3. The landing point is half-covered by the hull overhang (narrow landing corridor)
4. The launch and landing rails/tracks (I know for the model ) that is analogous to dual purpose catapults and arresting gear.
5. The lighting system on the fantail that looks like an Optical Landing System for manual control landing.

Basing it on a helicopter landing system didn't work for me because the approach corridor is quite large and the danger of bumping into a structure is smaller. The Star Trek equivalent would be to try and land the helicopter right into the enclosed hangar on the Ticonderoga or Coronado.

Interestingly, the closest analogy would be the small craft bay of an amphibious attack ship



I'm with Mytran about the "two sides" to the Enterprise.

There is the

1. designer's intent for a small bay and how things were suppose to operate and

2. what we ended up getting from 3 years of episodes and how things operated.

I think each side is equally valid. However, for recreating scenes from the episodes, it is alot easier for me to reverse-engineer the ship's features
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2010, 05:42 PM   #73
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

It should be pointed out that the shots we see of the shutllecraft in the flight bay on TOS are out of scale. I've done composites of the shot with a more properly scaled shuttlecraft (based on my drawings) and the craft ends up taking a noticeable amount of more room. It's still manageable, but it is bigger.

I think figuring out the hangar deck is very much like when I was figuring out how large my shuttlecraft would come out to. You have to do some detective work and judge for yourself what information takes precedence. You also have to decide what you want to accomplish. For myself I wanted a shuttlecraft that could exist as a "real" vehicle. That meant I tried to reason what Jefferies initially intended and balance that with what we actually saw.

The drawings in TMoST are an okay starting point, but I wouldn't give them the final word. I'd have to see how consistent it was with what we saw onscreen and balance between the two. The FJ drawings I'd give less weight to because he diverged in so many things when drawing up those plans.

Personally I'd opt for extending the flight deck fore bulkhead forward a bit even underneath the pylons. I simply think that gives the area more flexibility. I could suggest that the are below the flight deck were simply maintenance shops and that storage was locate fore of the flight deck we saw. That would be one way.

This is what it would look like with a more properly sized shuttlecraft, albeit a class H which a bit longer than a Class F although the craft's height and width are the same.


This is a quick and dirty reference I threw together as a starting point for what I might do with the hangar area. Note I've also scaled up the Shuttlecraft to be better representative of actual size.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14 2010, 04:10 AM   #74
Captain Robert April
Vice Admiral
 
Location: In selfless service to fandom, on the road to becoming a Star Trek trivia god...
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Mytran wrote: View Post
It's interesting that FJ made use of a much larger shuttlebay than Jefferies:

FJ did little more than transpose the Jefferies drawing of the forced perspective set, so he got off on the wrong foot right from the get-go (not a slam; it's a relatively recent deduction that the drawing was of the miniature set and not a straight cross section of the full-size section of the ship).
Captain Robert April is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14 2010, 04:12 AM   #75
Captain Robert April
Vice Admiral
 
Location: In selfless service to fandom, on the road to becoming a Star Trek trivia god...
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Shaw wrote: View Post
So, when are you gonna slap some nacelles on that bad boy?
Captain Robert April is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:54 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.