RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,344
Posts: 5,502,371
Members: 25,118
Currently online: 673
Newest member: Ashanti

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

Rumor Mill: Saldana Gives Birth
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

New Line of Anovos Enterprise Uniforms
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11

Frakes: Sign Me Up!
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 10 2010, 07:08 PM   #46
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

If the doors were where you suggest, shouldn't we have seen something like this?


(copyright to whoever made this pic, I found it on the web)
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2010, 08:06 PM   #47
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Exactly. You'd have to shoot at some unique angles to avoid seeing any of the obs gallery or recessed areas if we try and put JTB or IS on the flight deck, imo.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2010, 09:41 PM   #48
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

If the doors were where you suggest, shouldn't we have seen something like this?
That would depend on the framing, now wouldn't it? And that in turn would depend on the perspective of the forced-perspective set. I could see the control booths being framed out left and right, leaving only the inside of the doors - and if that were out of focus, the seams might not show.

Also, we might postulate that the flight deck features at least two turntables, one at the observed location and another further forward. That'd improve the logistics of the supposed two-deck arrangement, as well as improving our chances of finding suitable angles. A shuttle on the putative forward turntable would probably be visible through a forward wall doorway in a fashion that would frame out the control booths...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2010, 09:54 PM   #49
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

That is sorta possible, but the camera would need to be zoomed in tight to crop out the obs decks, etc. The advantage of having JTB and IS down below is that none of the shot scenes need to be altered
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2010, 12:09 AM   #50
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

I'm not convinced by the two-turntable solution. It does seem like an odd use of resources and design just to get the shots to line up.
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2010, 04:25 AM   #51
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Timo, are you thinking of two turntables on the flight deck or the below deck hangar? If you stop the forward bulkhead of the flight deck at just aft of the nacelles that is really really tight. If you extend it out like I did, you could put two turntables on the flight deck. But as I mentioned before, all the footage that is out there now wouldn't work without some editing as none of the shots are tight enough to crop out any of the structures. (And I've experimented quite a bit with my virtual set.) Or alternatively, a wall is raised between the two turntables which would explain the blank wall behind the shuttle in JTB and TIS.

But that also adds some complication - how does the shuttle move from one turntable to the other? And how does it fit with what we've seen?

BTW - Mytran - neat composite picture!

Last edited by blssdwlf; March 11 2010 at 04:27 AM. Reason: complicated
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2010, 07:40 AM   #52
Captain Robert April
Vice Admiral
 
Location: In selfless service to fandom, on the road to becoming a Star Trek trivia god...
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Remember, the turntable is also an elevator...
Captain Robert April is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2010, 07:55 AM   #53
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Remember, the turntable is also an elevator...
So two turntables (elevators) ?
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2010, 07:59 AM   #54
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
BTW - Mytran - neat composite picture!
Credit where its due - and the pic ain't mine!
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2010, 11:18 AM   #55
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

The pic is one of mine I did a couple of years ago. It was part of a very long thread called Never seen TOS scenes.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?

Last edited by Warped9; March 11 2010 at 12:50 PM.
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2010, 11:24 AM   #56
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

So two turntables (elevators)?
That was the possibility I was promoting - as an alternative to the previous idea of placing all the witnessed "Hanger Deck" action on the deck below the shuttlebay miniature set. After all, that's how aircraft carriers are built, too: there's a large surface, the flight deck, for facilitiating launches and recoveries, but the logistics call for multiple lifts that take the craft to and from that surface.

It's indeed quite a mystery why the shuttle takeoff and landing area needs to be that big. But both TOS and especially TOS-R give us hints that shuttlecraft operations aren't particularly precise, and that even a standard launch (as seen in TOS-R "The Galileo Seven") would result in the launching craft badly bruising any other craft housed in the same volume. Perhaps the flight deck is so big because shuttles need a lot of space to decelerate at approach, except in the most sedate of situations? Or because there's something analogous to "wind" to complicate flight deck approaches - say, the unpredictable relative movement of the craft and the mothership?

It's also possible the deck is big simply because it is designed to accept larger auxiliaries on occasion. Say, the gigantic aquashuttle from TAS "Ambergris Element" wouldn't fit aboard at all if the shuttlebay was only sized for economic operation of the Class F craft. And some other auxiliaries or visiting craft may be larger still.

On the two-lift idea, note how the TMP-refitted ship has elevator surfaces (square, paired, non-rotating) roughly where this putative second turntable would be. Hell, there might be three elevators in TOS already: one central, close to the aft doors, and two farther forward, possibly larger and non-rotating just like in TMP.

Another idea would be having two lifts/garages side by side at the front end of the flight deck, behind rolling doors. The ST5:TFF set suggests this. In TMP, the garage doors and walls might have been removed, but the actual volume would still be allocated that way. Or the doors and walls might be present even in TMP, but would be moveable, just like some other walls in the secondary hull are shown to be moveable in that movie. Perhaps the differences between TOS, TMP and TFF are actually rather minimal?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2010, 04:58 PM   #57
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Timo, are you thinking of two turntables on the flight deck or the below deck hangar?
Two inline elevators (both with turntables) would make operations easier. A flush with the deck hatch, covering the lowered forward elevator, would account for the second elevator not being seen in the episodes. Two adjacent elevators, working together, could lower a longer shuttle down to the shop deck.

Or alternatively, a wall is raised between the two turntables which would explain the blank wall behind the shuttle in
JTB and TIS.
This could be simular to the blast barriers raised on Navy aircraft carriers before launching a plane.

But that also adds some complication - how does the shuttle move from one turntable to the other? And how does it fit with what we've seen?
It would seem to make sense that the shuttles can in some fashion taxi under their own power.

Timo wrote: View Post
It's also possible the deck is big simply because it is designed to accept larger auxiliaries on occasion. Say, the gigantic aquashuttle from TAS "Ambergris Element" wouldn't fit aboard at all if the shuttlebay was only sized for economic operation of the Class F craft. And some other auxiliaries or visiting craft may be larger still.
Good point.

Another idea would be having two lifts/garages side by side at the front end of the flight deck, behind rolling doors.
The problem with this is that you're beginning to devote a truly large percentage of the secondary hull to flight operations, something the Enterprise does fairly rarely.
Merry Christmas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2010, 05:20 PM   #58
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Timo wrote: View Post
So two turntables (elevators)?
That was the possibility I was promoting - as an alternative to the previous idea of placing all the witnessed "Hanger Deck" action on the deck below the shuttlebay miniature set. After all, that's how aircraft carriers are built, too: there's a large surface, the flight deck, for facilitiating launches and recoveries, but the logistics call for multiple lifts that take the craft to and from that surface.
I think I'll play with that idea. I had initially abandoned it because there were no workable camera shots that didn't require some fancy editing (kudos to Warped9) to place (or remove) identifiable features of the flight deck.

Timo wrote: View Post
It's indeed quite a mystery why the shuttle takeoff and landing area needs to be that big. But both TOS and especially TOS-R give us hints that shuttlecraft operations aren't particularly precise, and that even a standard launch (as seen in TOS-R "The Galileo Seven") would result in the launching craft badly bruising any other craft housed in the same volume.
For TOS-R, I thought they royally screwed up by allowing the shuttle to be able to take off on its own from inside the shuttle bay. There are just too many things to hit on the way out and the Enterprise would need to fly a relatively predictable course (or have a tractor beam on the shuttle, which would negate the whole free flight thing.)

For TOS, it always seemed logical that they emulated (modern) aircraft carrier operations. Those three black rails used to move the shuttle model back and forth I had considered essentially launch and landing rails (like dual purpose catapults and arresting cables.)



On launch, they held the shuttle, accelerated it to the end of the flight deck and released the shuttle allowing it to safely clear the ship (even if the ship was maneuvering.) It would be the reverse for landing. The shuttle would be caught by the rails (assuming some kind of tractor/grav plate technology) and then carried to the elevator. It's along the same lines as the launch/landing rails seen in TMP's SF Command:



Timo wrote: View Post
It's also possible the deck is big simply because it is designed to accept larger auxiliaries on occasion. Say, the gigantic aquashuttle from TAS "Ambergris Element" wouldn't fit aboard at all if the shuttlebay was only sized for economic operation of the Class F craft. And some other auxiliaries or visiting craft may be larger still.
I think this makes the most sense. Plus, the size would easily accomodate the larger Galileo 5 shuttlecraft from ST5 and ANY over-sized cargo. The Enterprise could transport anything that could fit through their shuttlebay door (that couldn't be replicated at the destination) making it very useful for hauling stuff to distant colonies (like dispersing chemicals in orbit, etc).

Compare my "concept TOS long shuttlebay" to Andrew Probert's drawing of the TMP shuttlebay. The TMP shuttlebay (including elevators) is longer than my concept shuttlebay so perhaps having a large shuttlebay isn't so unique as far as this ship class goes?



Timo wrote: View Post
On the two-lift idea, note how the TMP-refitted ship has elevator surfaces (square, paired, non-rotating) roughly where this putative second turntable would be. Hell, there might be three elevators in TOS already: one central, close to the aft doors, and two farther forward, possibly larger and non-rotating just like in TMP.
Another idea would be having two lifts/garages side by side at the front end of the flight deck, behind rolling doors. The ST5:TFF set suggests this.
Yep I noticed that. But also the TMP version had no long wide hallway that connected to it from the front of the ship. All the access seems to come from open corridors that went around the large cargo space. Your idea would work if there weren't any of those pesky scenes from JTB and IS.



Timo wrote: View Post
In TMP, the garage doors and walls might have been removed, but the actual volume would still be allocated that way. Or the doors and walls might be present even in TMP, but would be moveable, just like some other walls in the secondary hull are shown to be moveable in that movie. Perhaps the differences between TOS, TMP and TFF are actually rather minimal?

Timo Saloniemi
I think the main difference between the TOS and TMP versions are the removal of hallways and rooms (and decks) that accessed the shuttle in favor of the large open access cargo area and the addition of a second elevator. It could be analogous to a pre-WW2 carrier with inline elevator having them moved to the sides giving better operational capacity.

But then again, it doesn't need to be overly complicated since the normal complement is only 4 shuttles
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2010, 05:21 PM   #59
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
The pic is one of mine I did a couple of years ago. It was part of a very long thread called Never seen TOS scenes.
BTW - good job on that pic If TOS or TOS-R had done that it would've rocked.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2010, 05:59 PM   #60
TIN_MAN
Fleet Captain
 
TIN_MAN's Avatar
 
Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Don't forget the ST:5 1701-A shuttle bay was much more like the one from the series, so it's logical to conlude that surrounding areas would be much more similar as well (whatever they may be?). Hope this helps?
TIN_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.