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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old March 7 2010, 06:58 PM   #91
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

There's no indication that when Hugh's cube was cut off from the collective, it 'provoked' the Borg. Indeed, by definition that is impossible, since it was *Hugh's* group who were individuals and prone to such things. The Borg, by excising that cube, were merely sterilizing an infection - that's how they'd look at it.
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Old March 8 2010, 05:55 AM   #92
Mojochi
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
There's no indication that when Hugh's cube was cut off from the collective, it 'provoked' the Borg. Indeed, by definition that is impossible, since it was *Hugh's* group who were individuals and prone to such things. The Borg, by excising that cube, were merely sterilizing an infection - that's how they'd look at it.
No specific indication, true, but it's still a sound logical premise, whether they made a purposeful reference to it being the cause of the 2nd Borg invasion, or not. Alerting the Borg to your presence is provocation enough, for them to begin assimilation procedures, as is evident, following the events of Q-Who.

Within a year, The Borg attempt to assimilate Earth, and fail, because Data hacked their system. Following that outcome, there is an absence of Borg activity, until they discover Hugh's scout ship, a couple years later. It stands to reason that, a primary motive for not immediately sending another Borg invasion force, after their 1st attempt, was because that 1st conflict ended with them being seriously compromised. Good reason to stand off the invasion

All I'm saying is, if you're looking to avoid being stung, you don't kick the hive. Taking a Borg onto your ship & then releasing it to infect its mothership, whatever the infection, is undue provocation. It's a second instance of the UFP dismantling a Borg cube, & interfering with the collective, in an attempt to destroy the collective

Just look & listen to them at the beginning of I Borg. They all know they are making a big mistake taking that Borg from the crash site.... everybody but Crusher, who is too busy thinking like a doctor, instead of an officer, & right from the start, Picard's only thought was to use the drone against them. Provocative, especially for a group that stands against that kind of behavior, & Picard knows exactly what he's done at the end of the episode. He calls it "Pernicious". Too bad it wasn't 100% effective, because the result is that they may now see you as active threat, trying to dismantle their collective = bad times for you
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Old March 9 2010, 01:02 AM   #93
Mr Troi
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Its quite funny how there are people advocating genocide and murder in this thread and they're supposed to be Next Generation fans! You guys have missed the point of this show in the most spectacular way possible . I even read a post where someone actually had to point out that killing babies was wrong .
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Old March 9 2010, 11:03 AM   #94
Nardpuncher
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Mr Troi wrote: View Post
Its quite funny how there are people advocating genocide and murder in this thread and they're supposed to be Next Generation fans! You guys have missed the point of this show in the most spectacular way possible . I even read a post where someone actually had to point out that killing babies was wrong .
One question for you is: Would you kill a Borg that was coming at you? What if another one came? Then another? When would you stop and just give up or run away? Would you destroy a Borg cube headed for a populated planet? What about two cubes? What percentage of the Borg are you comfortable destroying? 100% just isn't fair?
Well, in this fictional Trek universe we're given a nice and clean option of doing that to all of them because they all act exactly the same. They each would pose the exact same threat as every other one.
Also, even if you think it's something you wouldn't do, Picard should have done it and then gone and sought counseling or had a beer or just shut up and the rest of the Federation or even the galaxy would rename whole planets after him.
Oh, and please learn the difference between killing and murder!
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Old March 9 2010, 08:58 PM   #95
Mr Troi
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Nardpuncher wrote: View Post
One question for you is: Would you kill a Borg that was coming at you? What if another one came? Then another? When would you stop and just give up or run away? Would you destroy a Borg cube headed for a populated planet? What about two cubes? What percentage of the Borg are you comfortable destroying? 100% just isn't fair?
Well, in this fictional Trek universe we're given a nice and clean option of doing that to all of them because they all act exactly the same. They each would pose the exact same threat as every other one.
Also, even if you think it's something you wouldn't do, Picard should have done it and then gone and sought counseling or had a beer or just shut up and the rest of the Federation or even the galaxy would rename whole planets after him.
Oh, and please learn the difference between killing and murder!
That was more than one question.

I see your point but I think we are talking about two completely different scenarios and this has already been debated here. Trekker 4747 explained that the Federation was in a "cold war" with the Borg at the time of the I,Borg episode and not involved in the type of situation that you have described. You should go back and read page 2 and page 3 and that ought to explain it for you.
Also JRS pointed out that severed Borg drones can return to their former state - like Picard and Seven of Nine. The problem is that a person who has been assimilated by the Borg is not killed (or murdered) and his memory has not been erased. The individual continues to exist but he is overwhelmed by the collective. The objective has to be to try to liberate the individuals from the collective rather than destroying them. This is a very difficult thing to do though. However, it is a big problem for those who argue that the Federation should have wiped them all out.
You ask me to please learn the difference between killing and murder? My comment about someone having to point out that killing babies was wrong came from a post written by Mr. Laser Beam and he wrote: "No, because killing babies is always wrong."
My point was that advocating genocide, murder or killing babies - things like that - goes against the ethos of Star Trek: The Next Generation in the most clear-cut way possible. It would be impossible to miss the point of the show more.

Last edited by Mr Troi; March 9 2010 at 09:59 PM.
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Old March 10 2010, 02:05 AM   #96
Nardpuncher
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Mr Troi wrote: View Post
Nardpuncher wrote: View Post
One question for you is: Would you kill a Borg that was coming at you? What if another one came? Then another? When would you stop and just give up or run away? Would you destroy a Borg cube headed for a populated planet? What about two cubes? What percentage of the Borg are you comfortable destroying? 100% just isn't fair?
Well, in this fictional Trek universe we're given a nice and clean option of doing that to all of them because they all act exactly the same. They each would pose the exact same threat as every other one.
Also, even if you think it's something you wouldn't do, Picard should have done it and then gone and sought counseling or had a beer or just shut up and the rest of the Federation or even the galaxy would rename whole planets after him.
Oh, and please learn the difference between killing and murder!
That was more than one question.

I see your point but I think we are talking about two completely different scenarios and this has already been debated here. Trekker 4747 explained that the Federation was in a "cold war" with the Borg at the time of the I,Borg episode and not involved in the type of situation that you have described. You should go back and read page 2 and page 3 and that ought to explain it for you.
Also JRS pointed out that severed Borg drones can return to their former state - like Picard and Seven of Nine. The problem is that a person who has been assimilated by the Borg is not killed (or murdered) and his memory has not been erased. The individual continues to exist but he is overwhelmed by the collective. The objective has to be to try to liberate the individuals from the collective rather than destroying them. This is a very difficult thing to do though. However, it is a big problem for those who argue that the Federation should have wiped them all out.
You ask me to please learn the difference between killing and murder? My comment about someone having to point out that killing babies was wrong came from a post written by Mr. Laser Beam and he wrote: "No, because killing babies is always wrong."
My point was that advocating genocide, murder or killing babies - things like that - goes against the ethos of Star Trek: The Next Generation in the most clear-cut way possible. It would be impossible to miss the point of the show more.
Ha! You also saw my bad habit of saying "That's the one thing!" then I go on to list 5 things that either irk me or make me laug or whatever. Now I'm doing it withj questions! I have to quit that.
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Old March 10 2010, 05:33 AM   #97
cbspock
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Of course Picard couldn't man up and make the hard decision when the Borg were the bad assed bad guys of Star Trek, before they were changed and wusified in future encounters. Given Q Who, Best of Both Worlds, Picard should not have hesitated in wiping out the Borg. Sisko would have done it.



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Old March 10 2010, 11:59 AM   #98
Anwar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Except it wouldn't have worked, and if anything it would've made the Borg threat WORSE since they'd respond to attempted genocide with a REAL invasion.
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Old March 10 2010, 01:33 PM   #99
LaBarre
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Mr Troi wrote: View Post
Its quite funny how there are people advocating genocide and murder in this thread and they're supposed to be Next Generation fans! You guys have missed the point of this show in the most spectacular way possible . I even read a post where someone actually had to point out that killing babies was wrong .
I've read the responses to your post, but still wanted to go back to the original as my starting point, Mr Troi.

You make a fundamental philosophical point (and dare I say, theological to boot) here.

I'm glad that you did and support it wholeheartedly.
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Old March 11 2010, 01:48 AM   #100
Mr Troi
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

LaBarre wrote: View Post

I've read the responses to your post, but still wanted to go back to the original as my starting point, Mr Troi.

You make a fundamental philosophical point (and dare I say, theological to boot) here.

I'm glad that you did and support it wholeheartedly.
It is also interesting to read how these crimes are being justified: "they are just automatons", "they are not individuals", "they are zombies", "they are not a race", "I'm not sure if it is even genocide".
The implication is that they are inferior and so we can kill them with a clear conscience.
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Old March 11 2010, 09:20 PM   #101
Pemmer Harge
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Mysterion wrote: View Post
Yes. And Nechayev was correct. IMO, the blood of everyone killed by the Borg after that incident is (at least in part) on Picard's hands.
No. The Borg are responsible for their actions, not Picard, whether or not he made the right decision.
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Old March 15 2010, 11:40 PM   #102
Vanyel
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

The virus wouldn't have worked, once a cube is infected with anything that could or might threaten the Collective, it's cut off from the Collective. End of problem. As could be inferred from Hugh's cube, it was cut off once Hugh's individuality "infected" the rest of the cube. As stated before, the attempt at infecting the Collective with a virus could have made the Federation more of a threat in the eyes of the Collective.

One last question, if the virus was one that the Borg would have concentrated more and more processing power on as they tried to figure it out, why didn't it cause Data to go out?
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Old March 17 2010, 06:54 PM   #103
Trollheart
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
There is never justification for genocide.

Picard did the right thing.
Oh come on! Are you telling me that if you found a remote island/planet populated solely by clones of Wesley Crusher, you WOULDN'T nuke it???
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Old March 17 2010, 06:57 PM   #104
Trollheart
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Mr Troi wrote: View Post
. I even read a post where someone actually had to point out that killing babies was wrong .
Yeah, unless your're Hat (from South Park)! Hey, he was just defendin' himself!

Free Hat! Free Hat! Free Hat!
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Old March 18 2010, 07:16 AM   #105
Tiberius
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Of course Picard was wrong. The Borg aren't a race of sentient beings -- they're zombies!
Actually, the Borg Collective is a single sentient being. Picard says it in I, Borg.
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