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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old March 1 2010, 04:12 AM   #31
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

@Mytran - good observation on the lack of pressure lights on the DM screenshot. I figure it must go somewhere to the hangar deck controls or the flight deck but not in a direct way (although he is on the "hangar deck" but I'm thinking now that the "hangar deck" are 3 decks total unless you count the observation deck which could be 4.

@April - that side corridor comes it very handy! Mytran is correct, we never see that part of the corridor/wall area in TIS... so that allows me to add in a side corridor that I can use to go around the lower hangar deck levels

The whole warp pylon structure problem got me thinking and here is a rough idea of how it might work. I'm leveraging off of the two dorsal beams at the flight deck ceiling and making use of the non-windowed areas of the observation deck for part of the ribs

http://www.foundation3d.com/forums/a...0&d=1267412467

Cheers,
Peter
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Old March 1 2010, 11:10 AM   #32
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
As far as the pylon support structure, I'm mocking up something that I think could work. I'm using the interior shots from ST:TMP as inspiration and one thing I've noticed is that the TMP Enterprise is it seems that the pylons and neck support structure doesn't extend very far into the hull itself (at least not obviously anyway).
That's a very good point and from an in-universe perspective it makes perfect sense. It would call for some incredibly strong materials to work but hey; this is the future, right?
I'd be remiss at this point however if I didn't mention Cary L Brown's thread, since it also deals with support structure (from a modern "common sense" viewpoint). It's a fascinating read!

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
Well, it might have been the hallway between the briefing room and transporter? In any case, the sets were changed between the 1st season and 2nd/3rd season, so that would factor in. But the "A" frame doors at the end of the radial hallway sections was the same in all cases.
Most of the changes were at the engineering end of the corridor - the section with the briefing room and transporter where pretty much unchanged (and unmoved) throughout the series run.
However, the stretch of corridor you mentioned is indeed the bit used by spock and McCoy in TIS:



However, the T-room side of the studio is not far from my own theory as to where the shuttlebay mockup was: (I'm using the 20' shuttle prop here)



One of the books (possibly "Making of Star Trek) mentions that the Engineering Room was used as the shuttlebay, but I just can't see how the shuttle prop could fit in there and leave all the space that we see in JTB, TIS etc.
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Old March 1 2010, 03:42 PM   #33
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Mytran wrote: View Post
That's a very good point and from an in-universe perspective it makes perfect sense. It would call for some incredibly strong materials to work but hey; this is the future, right?
I'd be remiss at this point however if I didn't mention Cary L Brown's thread, since it also deals with support structure (from a modern "common sense" viewpoint). It's a fascinating read!
Wow. I looked through Cary Brown's thread and that is a fascinating (if not cautionary) read.

I like how he really pushes the structure all the way into the secondary hull, but unfortunately it would be a huge pain to recreate any hangar deck scene, IMHO. I wished he stuck with it longer just to see how he would work around that problem

I'm definitely going with the "advanced materials" philosophy and try to base it as "in-universe" as possible although I like his idea of using box beams for parts of the warp pylons There are going to be some external differences (or detailing) on my particular version of the ship won't be 100% accurate to any particular filming model though...

As to where they filmed the hangar deck scenes, I figured that they built the foyer in a large stage area that isn't in the current stage with the life-size shuttle model. In TIS when they go to the foyer, the camera cuts and they are now in the foyer. In JTB, the camera is already next to or in the foyer.
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Old March 1 2010, 04:13 PM   #34
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

I would tend to agree. I like how the director of TIS tries to merge the two locations together. It almost works, except that the dialogue is out of sync with the action (after they cross the triangular doorway). I'll put pics up later (if anyone's interested) to show what I mean, I'm stuck at work right now!

The hangar deck situation has cropped up here before and (short of making a 2000' Enterprise) there are two basic routes:

1. Use 21st Century "common sense" engineering techniques (like Cary) for the nacelle pylons but have a shuttlebay that is smaller than the one in show.

2. Have futuristic engineering setup (like blssdwlf ) and a larger, more show-accurate* shuttlebay.


*Of course this does raise the question - what do they need all that empty space for anyway? Surely the pilots aren't that bad! Maybe it doubles as other functions...basketball tournaments? Court Martial hangings? Perhaps they flood it occassionally and that's where the mysterious swimming pool is!
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Old March 1 2010, 05:17 PM   #35
scotpens
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
. . . As to where they filmed the hangar deck scenes, I figured that they built the foyer in a large stage area that isn't in the current stage with the life-size shuttle model. In TIS when they go to the foyer, the camera cuts and they are now in the foyer. In JTB, the camera is already next to or in the foyer.
Given the apparent distance between the foyer set and the shuttle mockup, it does seem more likely that those scenes were shot on the adjacent Stage 10, which was normally used for planet exteriors and one-time interior sets built for a specific episode.
Mytran wrote: View Post
. . . Of course this does raise the question - what do they need all that empty space for anyway? Surely the pilots aren't that bad! Maybe it doubles as other functions...basketball tournaments? Court Martial hangings? Perhaps they flood it occassionally and that's where the mysterious swimming pool is!
Or maybe they run freezer pipes across the deck and turn it into an ice skating rink?
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Old March 1 2010, 05:53 PM   #36
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Mytran wrote: View Post
*Of course this does raise the question - what do they need all that empty space for anyway? Surely the pilots aren't that bad! Maybe it doubles as other functions...basketball tournaments? Court Martial hangings? Perhaps they flood it occassionally and that's where the mysterious swimming pool is!
Lotsa reasons...

So they can fly cargo pods through it like this
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...icture0219.jpg

So they can hold executions like in "Turnabout Intruder"

Or reverse the gravity field and turn the ceiling into a half-pipe

And most obviously... bowling alley!

But yeah, it would make sense for it to do other functions given the size of the bay...
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Old March 1 2010, 10:12 PM   #37
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

It started as a joke but it actually makes some sense! I mean, how much useage does the shuttlebay actually get during an average mission?

And yes, it's certainly a prime location for the oft-debated bowling alley!
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Old March 1 2010, 10:17 PM   #38
Captain Robert April
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Since everything in the Engineering set was either movable or not visible from a certain distance outside the doorway, I don't see any problem with using that part of the soundstage as the hangar deck. The only qualifier is just much of a pain in the tuchus is was to move that shuttlecraft between soundstages and how much maneuvering had to be done around the standing sets, versus setting up sections of corridor next door as well as painting the floor, setting up a wall, etc, for one scene.

I suspect keeping all the action on Stage 8 won that argument.
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Old March 1 2010, 10:18 PM   #39
Captain Robert April
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Mytran wrote: View Post
It started as a joke but it actually makes some sense! I mean, how much useage does the shuttlebay actually get during an average mission?

And yes, it's certainly a prime location for the oft-debated bowling alley!
I've heard about crews on big cargo planes, like a C-5, setting up impromptu football games on those occasions when the hold is empty.
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Old March 1 2010, 11:06 PM   #40
scotpens
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
. . . The only qualifier is just much of a pain in the tuchus is was to move that shuttlecraft between soundstages and how much maneuvering had to be done around the standing sets, versus setting up sections of corridor next door as well as painting the floor, setting up a wall, etc, for one scene.

I suspect keeping all the action on Stage 8 won that argument.
The shuttle mockup was a big heavy sumbitch. That's not to say they couldn't have schlepped it between adjacent soundstages, but I'm sure it would have been moved only as absolutely necessary.

And the standing Enterprise sets were on Desilu's Stage 9, not 8.
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Old March 2 2010, 08:10 AM   #41
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Since I'm modeling the entire ship, I'm thinking it might make more sense for me to start a thread in the "fan art" section as that seems more appropriate?
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Old March 2 2010, 08:14 AM   #42
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

Mytran wrote: View Post
It started as a joke but it actually makes some sense! I mean, how much useage does the shuttlebay actually get during an average mission?

And yes, it's certainly a prime location for the oft-debated bowling alley!
I think a wishful nod to the "Enemy Within" when CBS did TOS-R would've been a throwaway scene of the hangar deck converted for some other purpose (and thus no shuttles). The in-universe explanation that Kirk didn't send shuttles to pick up Sulu was because of the SF Annual Bowling Tournament
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Old March 2 2010, 09:05 PM   #43
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
I think a wishful nod to the "Enemy Within" when CBS did TOS-R would've been a throwaway scene of the hangar deck converted for some other purpose (and thus no shuttles). The in-universe explanation that Kirk didn't send shuttles to pick up Sulu was because of the SF Annual Bowling Tournament
Love it - another Trek Mystery solved!
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Old March 9 2010, 01:21 AM   #44
Warped9
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

This is freakin' cool! I had always assumed we were always seeing the entrance to the flight deck (often referred to as the Hangar Deck) and yet we could actually have been seeing the entrance to the actual Hangar Deck.

This is gold!
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Old March 10 2010, 02:10 PM   #45
Timo
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Re: TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

A general point regarding the sets associated with shuttlecraft operations:

All the doorways and corridors depicted in the screencaps upthread seem to extend quite a bit beyond the outer walls of the shuttle facility that can be glimpsed through these doorways. That is, there's a lot of volume between the shuttle holding area and the outer walls of the starship. Now, if those doors and corridors are on the same level as the flight deck, this means the ship is more likely to be over than under thousand feet long...

...However, if they are on the same level as the hangar deck, below the flight deck, then it is relatively simple to argue that the hangar deck is a compact space, not nearly as wide or tall as the flight deck. Plenty of corridors could then exist between the outer walls of the hangar and the outer walls of the ship, without a need to assume a larger ship.

If we want to squeeze the corridors on the same level as the flight deck, we probably have to install them at an angle other than perpendicular to ship centerline. That is, when "JtB" shows a corridor extending away from the shuttlebay, it need not extend to port or to starboard exactly - indeed, it cannot, not if the ship is under a thousand feet long. Rather, it might extend towards the bow of the ship at an acute angle, so that the doorway is set in the forward wall of one of those pocket alcoves, and not in the side wall of such an alcove. The alcoves do suffer from a notable lack of doors that would be visible in the side walls - whereas there does seem to exist a door in the canted forward wall of the longer alcove, at least in some model pics, even though the actual episodes never show this.

If we don't want to move the corridors to the deck below the flight deck, and don't want to use corridors at odd angles, then we probably have to position the "JtB" doorway at the unseen front wall of the flight deck. The flat greyness on the background would then be the inside of the space doors, and the shuttle would be rotated to face the port wall...

Timo Saloniemi
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