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Old February 6 2010, 12:35 AM   #31
The Cutest of Borg
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Knowing the Federation, they were careful to wait until the Dominion attacked first before they attacked the shipyards.
That may be consistent with Federation ideals, but there's no on-screen evidence in Call to Arms that supports this. I'm sure the attack was carefully planned so they were sure the Dominion fleet was in route to DS9, but Sisko never sent any messages stating that they were under attack. They probably calculated how long it would take the fleet to reach DS9 and engage the station, but we don't know for certain who fired the first shots of the Dominion war.
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Old February 6 2010, 01:46 AM   #32
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

The wormhole being a natural choke point it should have been mined, in fact mined long before the Dominion was first contacted. But mined by whom? Bajor. Bajor wasn't a Federation member. Bajorians held sovereignty over their system and while the Federation has authority over DS9, I don't remember if the Federation possessed authority over the wormhole, although they certainly exercised control of it. For tech reasons Bajor most likely could not have mined the wormhole themselves and would have had to request that the Federation mine it for them. I'm suggesting command activated/detonated mines.

The GQ end of the wormhole was outside of Dominion space, but they could have had a "Monroe Doctrine" view on the planetary systems surrounding their frontier. Establishing the Bajorian colony was not considered an act of war by the founders, the Bajorian colony was destroyed simply because an outside group "encroached" upon their space.

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The Monroe Doctrine was the declaration by President James Monroe, in December 1823, that the United States would not tolerate a European nation colonizing an independent nation in North or South America. Any such intervention in the western hemisphere would be considered a hostile act by the United States
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Old February 6 2010, 02:19 AM   #33
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

I don't think the Dominion has any such need to receive or send any formal declaration of war. As Sisko said to Senator Vreenak (IT'S A FAAAAKE!), "the Founders see it as their sacred duty to impose order on the galaxy, their order." This effectively makes them at war with any species or government that does not capitulate to their rule. Even if the Federation didn't see it as justified for them to have destroyed the Bajoran colonies, I'm sure the Dominion did.
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Old February 6 2010, 04:24 AM   #34
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

The Cutest of Borg wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Knowing the Federation, they were careful to wait until the Dominion attacked first before they attacked the shipyards.
That may be consistent with Federation ideals, but there's no on-screen evidence in Call to Arms that supports this. I'm sure the attack was carefully planned so they were sure the Dominion fleet was in route to DS9, but Sisko never sent any messages stating that they were under attack. They probably calculated how long it would take the fleet to reach DS9 and engage the station, but we don't know for certain who fired the first shots of the Dominion war.
True; the closest we'll get to any on screen mention, is when Sisko gives his speech before leaving the station, where he says while they kept the Dominion occupied, Starfleet crossed the border and destroyed the shipyards.

No particular sequence is mentioned though.

Based on past Starfleet behavior, Starfleet would wait, in order so it can be said they didn't fire the first shot that officially "started the war".
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Old February 6 2010, 07:50 AM   #35
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

One other thought that just occurred to me... Bajor signed a non-aggression treaty with the Dominion. All Bajorans were ordered off DS9. Major Kira delivered an official protest from the Bajoran government for not surrendering the station to Bajoran authorities. In light of these circumstances, you can't really blame the Dominion for launching an assault on the station. They were, in a sense, coming to the aid of their friends who had asked the Federation to reliquish control of their space station. If Starfleet used the attack on DS9 as justification for attacking the shipyards, they would be on pretty shaky ground.
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Old February 6 2010, 05:24 PM   #36
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

The Cutest of Borg wrote: View Post
Major Kira delivered an official protest from the Bajoran government for not surrendering the station to Bajoran authorities.
She only did that because she was technically required to do so, AFAIK. She didn't actually believe in it.

As for Bajor, wasn't its nonagression pact with the Dominion actually Sisko's idea in the first place?
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Old February 6 2010, 06:02 PM   #37
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

GalaxyClass1701 wrote: View Post
The idea that the Federation shouldn't have mined the wormhole is ridiculos it was there territory!
No, it was bajoran territory, the Federation had no right to mine the wormhole without Bajor's consent.
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Old February 6 2010, 06:07 PM   #38
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The Cutest of Borg wrote: View Post
Major Kira delivered an official protest from the Bajoran government for not surrendering the station to Bajoran authorities.
She only did that because she was technically required to do so, AFAIK. She didn't actually believe in it.

As for Bajor, wasn't its nonagression pact with the Dominion actually Sisko's idea in the first place?
Yep!
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Old February 6 2010, 06:11 PM   #39
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Probably doesn't matter. Technically, the United States hasn't been at war since 1945. However, both Koreas have been in an ongoing state of war since 1950. Despite all of this, the U.S. has been involved in numerous military actions (Vietnam, Iraq etc.), while relations between the Koreas have been relatively uneventful most of the time (a cease-fire came into effect in 1953).

If formal declarations of war are still as irrelevant in the 24th century as they were since WWII, then no declarations of war were ever exchanged between the Federation and the Dominion.

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Old February 6 2010, 06:55 PM   #40
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
She only did that because she was technically required to do so, AFAIK. She didn't actually believe in it.
True, and I'm sure the Council of Ministers felt the same way. But it was a political outcome of signing the agreement, and was legally binding. After Major Kira protested the Federation refusing to give up the station, Kira Nerys fought unofficially along side her friends.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
As for Bajor, wasn't its nonagression pact with the Dominion actually Sisko's idea in the first place?
Actually, it was the Dominion's idea since they sent Weyoun to negotiate with Kai Winn. Bajor, however, was not going to sign it until the Emissary addressed them and told them it was in their best interest to sign it.

I'm actually surprised there weren't more repercussions from Bajor breaking the non-aggression pact after Sisko retook DS9. Aside from Dukat's personal vendetta against Bajor, the Dominion never really responded aggressively against the Bajorans for the rest of the war.
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Old February 6 2010, 11:07 PM   #41
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
If formal declarations of war are still as irrelevant in the 24th century as they were since WWII, then no declarations of war were ever exchanged between the Federation and the Dominion.
If no declaration was issued by the Federation council, then what about the Federation President's authorization for war, the Federation President is presumally the Commander In Chief of Star Fleet (I don't know) did the council give him, or even have to give him, anything for the fleet to engage in what came to be a major war?

On October 2002 the US Congress voted in place "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002" (Public Law No: 107-243) authorizing the commander in chief to take the country to war. Did the Federation President recieve a simular authorization?

Or (as I asked in my OP) can Star Fleet do this all by it's self? Part of it's standing rules of engagement, the fleet defending the homeland, military treaties with foreign powers being created, order member worlds to increase their defenses, ships transferred to the main fleet, etc.
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Old February 6 2010, 11:51 PM   #42
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

The Cutest of Borg wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
As for Bajor, wasn't its nonagression pact with the Dominion actually Sisko's idea in the first place?
Actually, it was the Dominion's idea since they sent Weyoun to negotiate with Kai Winn. Bajor, however, was not going to sign it until the Emissary addressed them and told them it was in their best interest to sign it.
Exactly. As the Emissary, Sisko's word carried great weight on Bajor. They would go along with whatever he suggested. And since he advocated the mining of the wormhole, the Bajorans would allow it. The reason he asked them to sign the nonaggression pact would be to keep the Dominion away (if they hadn't, they would have been attacked).
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Old February 7 2010, 01:22 AM   #43
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
If formal declarations of war are still as irrelevant in the 24th century as they were since WWII, then no declarations of war were ever exchanged between the Federation and the Dominion.
If no declaration was issued by the Federation council, then what about the Federation President's authorization for war, the Federation President is presumally the Commander In Chief of Star Fleet (I don't know) did the council give him, or even have to give him, anything for the fleet to engage in what came to be a major war?

On October 2002 the US Congress voted in place "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002" (Public Law No: 107-243) authorizing the commander in chief to take the country to war. Did the Federation President recieve a simular authorization?

Or (as I asked in my OP) can Star Fleet do this all by it's self? Part of it's standing rules of engagement, the fleet defending the homeland, military treaties with foreign powers being created, order member worlds to increase their defenses, ships transferred to the main fleet, etc.
I guess that depends on what the Federation's constitution says... which is something we don't know exactly.
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