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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 5 2010, 03:21 AM   #16
cbspock
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Actually the war really started with the destruction of the USS Odyssey.


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Old February 5 2010, 05:14 AM   #17
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Marie1 wrote: View Post
But the Feds were flying around in the GQ, and looking over planets for mining etc. And even if it wasn't "in" the space, between Fed and Rom. space there's a neutral zone...
Which is what you expect spacefaring people to do, fly around and look at things.

What does the Romulan Neutral Zone have to do with the Federation and Dominion in the GQ? The RNZ was created supposedly created out of whatever treaty that ended the Earth-Romulan War that set out a buffer zone between the two groups and set specific borders. No such agreement existed between the Federation and the Dominion, for one thing Federation territory and Dominion territory didn't come into contact until the Dominion owned Cardassia and the Dominion did not engage the Federation diplomatically to set up that sort of treaty.
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Old February 5 2010, 05:15 AM   #18
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

^^While that might be the first visible sign, I'd argue the unwarranted destruction of the New Bajor colony and whatever various ships were listed on the PADD that Talak'talan handed over in Ops marked the beginning of hostilities.

While I get that the Dominion might view the Federation as "invading" their territory, it wasn't the Feds whose solution was to annihilate the new kids on the block.
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Old February 5 2010, 05:17 AM   #19
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

The Cutest of Borg wrote: View Post
The Feds were within their rights to mine the wormhole, especially with the blessing of the Bajoran liason officer. On the other hand, history condemns the Japanese Navy's attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. The Federation was equally guilty of a savage act of war when they launched their preemptive attack on the Torros III shipyards. The Feds started the Dominion War, though you could argue that it would have happened sooner or later.
Did they attack the shipyard before the Dominion attacked DS9? We don't know for sure. Though it's entirely likely that they were waiting, most likely hiding somewhere and surprised the Dominion with such a swift attack that they were not expecting. The war could have started with the destruction of the USS Odyssey. It could have started when the Dominion came through and drove the Klingons out of Cardassian space and wiped out the Maquis. It could have started when Weyoun gave the ultimatum, "Either you remove the mines, or we will take this station from you and remove them ourselves." He knew that Sisko wasn't going to budge on this and Sisko even said that when he said they wouldn't remove the mines, they both knew there'd be war. There are so many events that could be marked as the beginning of the war it's hard to pinpoint. Though I think the Sisko and Weyoun meeting was essentially the Dominion's declaration of war.
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Old February 5 2010, 05:25 AM   #20
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

DonIago wrote: View Post
it wasn't the Feds whose solution was to annihilate the new kids on the block.
This.

If the Dominion didn't want the colonies there, all they had to do was tell the Federation to get out. The fact that the Dominion *attacked* proved that they were in the wrong. Just like the Gorn at Cestus III.
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Old February 5 2010, 06:02 AM   #21
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Didn't Sisko say something to one of the Founders or Vorta about the Federation had every right to explore inside the Gamma Quadrant? The Dominion didn't want the Federation in the Gamma Quadrant at all. Which led to the destruction of every Federation ship entering the wormhole through the Gamma Quadrant.
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Old February 5 2010, 06:16 AM   #22
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

I'm not saying the attacks on the Odyssey, New Bajor, and other Federation ships in the Gamma Quadrant were justified. But you could argue that the Dominion felt the Federation was encroaching on their territory and wanted to send a message to stay the hell away. That didn't stop Alpha Quadrant powers from continuing to explore the Gamma Quadrant, and in some cases, interfering with Dominion planets (i.e trade with the Karrama, Bashir curing the Blight, etc.) War could have been averted if the Feds had stayed on their side of the wormhole.
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Old February 5 2010, 07:02 AM   #23
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Nick086 wrote: View Post
How vast is Dominion space? You don't see any Borg present in the Gamma Quadrant. Does the Dominion control entire Gamma Quadrant? The Dominion were very hyper sensitive to any outsider entering their space. So I guesss any motive friendly or not is an act of war. The ferengi couldn't even make any serious profitable trading or selling in Quadrant.
I don't think the Dominion controlled the space immediately surrounding the Gamma Quadrant entrance to the Wormhole. Several maps and data displays seen throughout the series show the Dominion border some distance from the Wormhole.

The Dominion's decision to destroy any Alpha Quadrant excursion into the Gamma Quadrant would be similiar to the European Union deciding to destroy any United States excursion into the Mediterranean Sea. The EU doesn't control the entire Sea, there are other powers in the area, but they're definitely the big dog on the block.

As for what actually started the war, I believe it was the Dominion's attack on Deep Space Nine.
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Old February 5 2010, 07:04 AM   #24
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

^ Given that it took a year and a half for the Dominion's name to start vaguely appearing it suggests they weren't terribly close to the wormhole at all. If they did control the space around the wormhole their presence should have been pretty much immediately noticed.

Nick086 wrote: View Post
Didn't Sisko say something to one of the Founders or Vorta about the Federation had every right to explore inside the Gamma Quadrant? The Dominion didn't want the Federation in the Gamma Quadrant at all. Which led to the destruction of every Federation ship entering the wormhole through the Gamma Quadrant.
I think it was Dax who said something along those lines when the Jem'Hadar arrived with the Dominion's unreasonable ultimatum.

Actually it didn't lead to the destruction of every ship entering the GQ. The Dominion sent an ultimatum and didn't enforce it, traffic was going both ways for years to come.

The Cutest of Borg wrote: View Post
War could have been averted if the Feds had stayed on their side of the wormhole.
That I don't agree with. The only way war would have been averted is if the Federation closed the wormhole as soon as the Dominion revealed itself. The Dominion's ultimatum to that everyone stays on their own side is meaningless given they were at the same time trying to infiltrate Eris into the Federation.

If the Dominion were serious with their ultimatum they would have interdicted the wormhole with a minefield as Sisko did or with ships. However, they didn't. By all accounts they gave the wormhole a wide berth and let the Federation and other AQ groups go about their business in the GQ.

I suspect they did so to avoid the situation that occurred in "In Purgatory's Shadow". Any type of significant military activity near the wormhole would spook the Federation and they would close the wormhole. This would cut the Dominion off from several powerful threats they will only continue to grow as threats as time goes by. At that point the Dominion has a number of significant advantages over the regional powers in and around the Federation. Without the wormhole it might be several decades until they next meet and the Dominion's advantage might have evaporated in that time and it could be faced with large powerful empires run by solids that cannot be brought to order. It also aids the Dominion for traffic to remain travelling through the wormhole. It allows them to get Founders in and out as well as brings in enemy vessels that they can periodically prey on for information.
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Old February 5 2010, 08:05 AM   #25
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
Navaros wrote: View Post
I would argue that the Feds declared war implicitly by mining the wormhole, which was in itself an act of war.
The Bajoran government and the Federation had every right to place mines in their terrority. If they had placed mines in Cardassian space, or in Dominion space in the Gamma Quadrant, that would have been an act of war.

This was simply an act of internal defense. All they were doing was telling the Dominion that they couldn't pass through Bajoran space and they set up a means to make that possible. In effect, they were fortifying their borders, which every state has the right to do.
Is that true? Can Turkey mine the Bosporus? Denmark, the Sund? I'm not sure of the legality of it, although I am sure closing those passages would have been regarded as extremely hostile acts by neighboring powers.
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Old February 5 2010, 08:34 AM   #26
Admiral Shran
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

^ It was clearly a hostile act on the part of the Federation. However, I would argue that it wasn't a flat out declaration, or act, of war. The actual act of war came when the Dominion forced their way into Bajoran space to remove the mines.

It would be the same for Turkey or Denmark. When another power tries to forcibly remove the mines from the Bosporus or Sund, that's the start of war.
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Old February 5 2010, 02:50 PM   #27
Nightdiamond
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Knowing the Federation, they were careful to wait until the Dominion attacked first before they attacked the shipyards.

Their justification would be that the attack on the station was an act of war.

It's pretty much common sense that the Federation would mine the wormhole once they realized what was happening; the Dominion had already attacked several ships patrolling the borders during the first few months they were there.
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Old February 5 2010, 03:09 PM   #28
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

An act of war is whatever the participants define as an act of war. The US might have considered it an act of war by the USSR when a simple barbed wire fence was erected in turf that belonged neither to the US nor to the USSR... Political convenience dictated otherwise.

The Dominion defined the mining of the wormhole mouth as an act of war. It was, then.

However, the Federation never defined the blowing up of the Odyssey as an act of war. They were quite willing to tolerate it, and never went to war about it. Nor did they consider the attempted destruction of Bajor's star an act of war. Admittedly, in the first case it was initially difficult to contact the culprits, and in the second it was difficult to demonstrate their guilt. Nevertheless, the war did not start over either of these acts.

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Old February 5 2010, 05:36 PM   #29
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

cbspock wrote: View Post
Actually the war really started with the destruction of the USS Odyssey.


-Chris
The idea that the Federation shouldn't have mined the wormhole is ridiculos it was there territory!
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Old February 5 2010, 05:44 PM   #30
Marie1
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Re: DOMINION DECLARATION

Jono wrote: View Post
Marie1 wrote: View Post
But the Feds were flying around in the GQ, and looking over planets for mining etc. And even if it wasn't "in" the space, between Fed and Rom. space there's a neutral zone...
Which is what you expect spacefaring people to do, fly around and look at things.

What does the Romulan Neutral Zone have to do with the Federation and Dominion in the GQ? The RNZ was created supposedly created out of whatever treaty that ended the Earth-Romulan War that set out a buffer zone between the two groups and set specific borders. No such agreement existed between the Federation and the Dominion, for one thing Federation territory and Dominion territory didn't come into contact until the Dominion owned Cardassia and the Dominion did not engage the Federation diplomatically to set up that sort of treaty.

And in doing so, they're going to step over boarders and onto people's toes- in this case, a paranoid and xeno-hateful people who were planning to take over the AQ anyway.

We don't want to just ask, we want to take. Trust me- make a buffer... out of suns... between us and you.
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