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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old February 4 2010, 02:35 PM   #16
Mark de Vries
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

I highly doubt China is going to send anyone to the Moon before 2020. They've launched two manned missions into low Earth orbit and are now gearing up for a few more and a series of small space stations. If the third of these is up before 2020 I'd call that a huge success.
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Old February 4 2010, 03:25 PM   #17
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

The Badger wrote: View Post
I can't see how China getting to the moon in 2020 would be embarrassing for the US. America got there in 1969. The space race is over, America won.
This.

Let the Chinese go to the Moon, as long as someone's carrying this forward. They can afford it, we - thanks largely to Dubya - can't. Obama's done the right thing, here.
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Old February 4 2010, 04:04 PM   #18
The Badger
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Jadzia wrote: View Post
What did our parents achieve? A level 80 death knight.
.
But would returning to the moon be an achievement?

If it was a full scale project, for purposes of scientific enquiry, then yes we should return. But to go back simply for the sake of going back is pointless. An ego boost for the American people, a moment of defiance, a shout of 'AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!'.

And at the risk of repeating myself, Constellation was over budget and behind schedule. It wasn't working. Even if you only wanted to send a couple of guys to the moon for publicity purposes, Constellation was barely adequate. Anything significant, forget it.

I'll admit that, yes, I'm disappointed too. I'm just old enough to remember the last couple of Apollo missions. I'd love to see a return to the moon. But this project wasn't working.


Oh, I reckon our kids will look on mapping the human genome as our big achievement. It's kind of important.
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Old February 4 2010, 04:30 PM   #19
John Picard
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

The Badger wrote: View Post
Jadzia wrote: View Post
What did our parents achieve? A level 80 death knight.
.
But would returning to the moon be an achievement?

If it was a full scale project, for purposes of scientific inquiry, then yes we should return. But to go back simply for the sake of going back is pointless. An ego boost for the American people, a moment of defiance, a shout of 'AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!'.
And this is how I view every single post from people here who constantly complain about going to Mars.

Me: "Why do we need to go to Mars?"
Them: "WHY?? WHY??? GEEZUSSFUCKINGAREYOUNUTS? BY THIS TIME IN STAR TREK THE ANTIGRAVOMETRIC SELF FLAGILATOR WAS INVENTED AND THE MARTIAN COLONIES WERE GOING FULL FORCE AND THEN IN THE SECOND GRADE I REMEMBER BEING TOLD THAT BY 2005 I'D BE TAKING A VACATION ON THE MOON BEFORE HEADING TO THE MINES OF MARS.....WE HAVE TO GO TO MARS....JUST....FUCKING....HAVE....TO!!!!!!!!"
Me:

In another Moon thread, there was the mention of going to the Moon to extract H3 to use as an energy source on Earth. If that were the purpose of returning to the Moon, then by all means do it. But if the intent is just to send three people there to collect rocks, hotwire the lunar buggy, and walk around for a bit -- then no.
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Old February 4 2010, 05:07 PM   #20
Lindley
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Going to Mars eventually is important as a milestone. It's political as much as scientific.

But it has to be done at the proper time. Just saying we're going to do it without the infrastructure in place to make it a practical ambition is counter-productive.
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Old February 4 2010, 05:09 PM   #21
Lindley
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
Even if Obama gets 8 full years (yes, I voted for "change", but not this kind), the next prez could do a 180 and restart the program.

It's not like they've sunk that much money into the current program that an 8 year gap would be such a big deal.

And just maybe there are bigger things to deal with right now other than moon landings and those of us who want the future to happen in our lifetimes are out of luck.
They'd better not restart Constellation----it was cancelled for a damn good reason.

But a future, different manned moon or Mars mission, using the technology which Obama's plan will be developing for us now, is absolutely a good idea.

Obama hasn't cancelled manned spaceflight. He's just insisted that we modernize the system before we overreach ourselves.
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Old February 4 2010, 06:25 PM   #22
Jadzia
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

The Badger wrote: View Post
Jadzia wrote: View Post
What did our parents achieve? A level 80 death knight.
.
But would returning to the moon be an achievement?
It's an achievement because it's difficult to do. It stretches us to our intellectual and engineering limits.

I'm not saying it has to be a moon project, I'm not saying it even has to be a space project, but something ambitious and fun. We must have ambition. We must keep stretching ourselves. It is the spirit of being human.

If it was a full scale project, for purposes of scientific enquiry, then yes we should return. But to go back simply for the sake of going back is pointless. An ego boost for the American people, a moment of defiance, a shout of 'AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!'.
Well I don't care which nation(s) achieve these things: USA, Europe, China, Russia, or whoever, is irrelevant to me. I don't have a tribalist mentality; I'm more interested in the human achievement. I would feel equally proud of the achievers, independent of what language they speak.
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Old February 4 2010, 07:15 PM   #23
The Badger
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Jadzia wrote: View Post

It's an achievement because it's difficult to do. It stretches us to our intellectual and engineering limits.

I'm not saying it has to be a moon project, I'm not saying it even has to be a space project, but something ambitious and fun. We must have ambition. We must keep stretching ourselves. It is the spirit of being human.
That's certainly a good point, and one I would agree with. But wouldn't you agree that it's better to have an achievement with substance?

Well I don't care which nation(s) achieve these things: USA, Europe, China, Russia, or whoever, is irrelevant to me. I don't have a tribalist mentality; I'm more interested in the human achievement. I would feel equally proud of the achievers, independent of what language they speak.
That's a sentiment I can agree with.
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Old February 4 2010, 07:42 PM   #24
Jadzia
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

The Badger wrote: View Post
That's certainly a good point, and one I would agree with. But wouldn't you agree that it's better to have an achievement with substance?
Perhaps, but I don't have a better idea right now.

The learning and doing experience can be valuable in itself. The act of the world's most brilliant people all pulling together and doing the best work they can to achieve something for humanity.
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Old February 4 2010, 10:11 PM   #25
ConRefit79
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Dennis wrote: View Post
The Badger wrote: View Post
I can't see how China getting to the moon in 2020 would be embarrassing for the US. America got there in 1969. The space race is over, America won.
This.

Let the Chinese go to the Moon, as long as someone's carrying this forward. They can afford it, we - thanks largely to Dubya - can't. Obama's done the right thing, here.
Let's see. When Bush came into office, the US was ~ $5T in debt. When he left we were $10T. That was $5T over 8 yrs and after, the Clinton and 911 recessions, 2 wars and the start of Bush Recession (stimulus of 2008 and TARP). Now we're $12T - $13T in 1 yr. BTW, Congress raised the debt ceiling to $14.1T today. And, Obama's 2011 budget has a $1.6T deficit. That budget anticipates new taxes from the sunset of the Bush tax cuts, healthcare and cap and trade, none of which have passed. And it is still $1.6T in the red.
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Old February 5 2010, 12:29 AM   #26
Candlefright
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

I honestly think the way NASA is going lately China would have beaten the Americans anyway.
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Old February 5 2010, 01:08 AM   #27
Ar-Pharazon
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Lindley wrote: View Post
Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
Even if Obama gets 8 full years (yes, I voted for "change", but not this kind), the next prez could do a 180 and restart the program.

It's not like they've sunk that much money into the current program that an 8 year gap would be such a big deal.

And just maybe there are bigger things to deal with right now other than moon landings and those of us who want the future to happen in our lifetimes are out of luck.
They'd better not restart Constellation----it was cancelled for a damn good reason.

But a future, different manned moon or Mars mission, using the technology which Obama's plan will be developing for us now, is absolutely a good idea.

Obama hasn't cancelled manned spaceflight. He's just insisted that we modernize the system before we overreach ourselves.
I wasn't necessarily advocating continuing Constellation. Others like The Badger have a better idea that it's a poor system overall than I do.
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Old February 6 2010, 11:05 PM   #28
Brown-Eyed Ghoul
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

John Picard wrote: View Post
Me: “Why do we need to go to Mars?”
Them: “WHY?? WHY??? GEEZUSSFUCKINGAREYOUNUTS? BY THIS TIME IN STAR TREK THE ANTIGRAVOMETRIC SELF FLAGILATOR WAS INVENTED AND THE MARTIAN COLONIES WERE GOING FULL FORCE AND THEN IN THE SECOND GRADE I REMEMBER BEING TOLD THAT BY 2005 I'D BE TAKING A VACATION ON THE MOON BEFORE HEADING TO THE MINES OF MARS.....WE HAVE TO GO TO MARS....JUST....FUCKING....HAVE....TO!!!!!!!!”
Antigravometric self-flagellator? Sounds kinky!

When I was in my teens, there were two things I was sure would happen before the year 2000: the legalization of marijuana and a manned expedition to Mars. The way things are going now, it looks as if a manned Mars mission won't happen in my lifetime.

Well, if you smoke enough good dope, you might THINK you're on Mars . . .
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Old February 11 2010, 08:26 AM   #29
drychlick
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

i not like the the idea of china going to to the moon too! but that life! the usa should be a leader! not come in 2th or 3! We just not have the money for this now! but still bug the hell of me!
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Old February 18 2010, 12:00 PM   #30
TheMasterOfOrion
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

China won't go to the Moon, the Chinese will land robots there but its not the Chinaman's final destination. China unlike the old Soviet program the Chinese state gov has left a lot of news reports and info out in the open. Some of it is smoke and mirrors, so you need to be cynical and critical to see what they are really up to. They are building a rocket for heavy lift payloads but they will not colonize the Moon. The Moon is too bare and inhospitable to ever be colonized even in the 21st century its still to baron and bare for us.
Mars will be China's final destination, got an atmosphere, almost a 24 hr day and lots of resources, they could sustain a colony there and truly make Mars a red planet. First China will need to have gained experience in long term flight, I can see this after they have kept people on a space station around 2017 ish, the Chinese are a production and economic power house, their economy barely took any blows during the global financial meltdown and they easily have the tech to build a long term space station. Once they have gained experience in long term flight they will have the raw data and guts to make that 6 month voyage to Mars. The mission the Chinese take will be very similar to the one outlined by aerospace engineer and author Robert Zubrin. Once the Chinese make Mars theirs this century will truly be a Chinese one.
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