TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

[TeutonicNights]

Well Balance was pretty unique in how they tried to keep the look of the old FX -even though the space battle plot could have allowed for much more- being the first TOSR episode to air and everything.
They didn't do that in TDM or Journey to Babel and many others. In most cases where they "didn't go far enough", it was pretty obviously lack of time and money more than anything. They sure would have loved to make an enhanced Vulcan soundstage for Amok Time for example.

If you're complaining about not enough courage to replace one of the connies in one friggin episode (where there was a good reason to use only connies), you should applaud them for giving us a BOP in "Enterprise incident", for sacrificing live-action material for inserting FX of Vulcan into "Amok Time", for enhancing the Eminiar 7 matte with a hovertrain etc. Those moments are more numerous than the real letdowns.
You may have wanted prolonged FX sequences, but I can understand why they didn't do that. The smooth hull on the other hand is an artistic choice and there is nothing wrong with that, really.

So if anything they were a bit shy right at the beginning with "Balance", and that one was a wasted opportunity.
But they definitely chose to get a lot more daring later on (and then a bit sloppy towards the end).

Choosing Balance of Terror as first episode was a mistake in my opinion. The Menagerie, as aired, would have been a better choice and would have pleased (most) "purists" and "progressives" alike, which the TOSR version of Balance couldn't.

[WHF]

Haggis and tatties wrote:

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Your confusing terminology, Star trek Enhanced which we have now with the added CGI and in HD is whats being called remastered today and was only started in 2006, Remastered back in 2004 simply meant the episodes had been cleaned up somewhat in sound and picture by going back to the master tapes and adding 5.1 surround sound, those box sets have no added CGI in any of the episodes, if you do have these boxset then you have the original series without the added CGI effects, there is no way you can have those box set with the added CGI effects because enhanced Trek did not come onto being until 2006, two years after those box sets were released....Do you even have those box sets, if you did you would actually know this buy watching the shows on it.

I never said that these sets had CGI, I said that they were remastered. That statement is correct. Now I admit that I made this statement with tongue in cheek because I was making a point about people using the term remastered incorrectly. I know Star Trek fans mean "old SFX replaced with CGI" when they say "remastered".

If I tell you that I have Casablanca on blu-ray and that it's remastered will you think that it has CGI in it (or that I don't own it because it doesn't have CGI)? I think this is the problem with the incorrect use of this term. Remastered means the same thing today as it did five years ago. The only time this term is used incorrectly is in relation to Star Trek.

[trevanian]

WHF wrote:

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Remastered means the same thing today as it did five years ago. The only time this term is used incorrectly is in relation to Star Trek.

Truer words were only rarely spoken. Maybe they can put this in front of any new thread that gets onto the subject. For me, I just take the -r in TOS-r to mean retarded.

[Haggis and tatties]

WHF wrote:

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I never said that these sets had CGI, I said that they were remastered. That statement is correct. Now I admit that I made this statement with tongue in cheek because I was making a point about people using the term remastered incorrectly. I know Star Trek fans mean "old SFX replaced with CGI" when they say "remastered".

If I tell you that I have Casablanca on blu-ray and that it's remastered will you think that it has CGI in it (or that I don't own it because it doesn't have CGI)? I think this is the problem with the incorrect use of this term. Remastered means the same thing today as it did five years ago. The only time this term is used incorrectly is in relation to Star Trek.

So while the OP and everybody else here were obviously discussing the new CGI Remastered Star trek you were personally discussing terminology in the most unclear fashion i have ever seen......well there you go.....although on the plus side you sort of inadvertently confirmed the latter part of the title of this thread which i find ironically funny.

[WHF]

trevanian wrote:

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Truer words were only rarely spoken. Maybe they can put this in front of any new thread that gets onto the subject. For me, I just take the -r in TOS-r to mean retarded.

I don't have strong feelings about the CGI replacing the original effects, I will watch either one and I will enjoy both versions. I'm quite happy that the blu-ray sets allow us to watch both.

I prefer to think that the -r should stand for revised. Maybe we should refer to it as TOS-cgi.

[ssosmcin]

Some episodes work so much better with the new effects, but only those which relied on them for the story. There aren't many of those, but mostly Doomsday Machine, Tomorrow is Yesterday (the slingshot effect and 1701 in the atmosphere re-done shots are ejaculatingly good), and any episode with space combat or globs of light instead of a model. Episodes where the only effects are the Enterprise beauty shots, those don't really benefit. Bad matte paintings are nicely replaced and so on.

But sometimes the new shows don't capture the same energy and rhythm, even when the original show used yet another stock shot of the Enterprise turning left. To have a sped up stock shot replaced by a slower, lumbering CGI shot may be technically superior, but it sucks the energy out of the scene for me (just me, mind you).

I agree, in HD, the change from the live action shots to the original effects can be jarring, especially some of the weaker shots. But it's also jarring going from the same live action footage to many of the super-duper sharp and clean CGI. It's actually less of a contrast on a smaller, tube set. The difference in medium is pretty evident, but the work is mosty quite good. The Enterprise Incident is fantastic. Actually, it's not so much the CGI itself as the composition or re-composition of some shots. Elaan of Troyius was a cut and past job in the 60's, but it was well edited and pretty damned good (and showed off the clearest first generation Klingon D-7 effects shorts). The CGI renderings are not as crisply edited and lost (again) energy. The matte shots, like Flint's castle, are just too freaking "Naboo" to me and far outside what seems right for the show. Good effects are one thing, but to switch from crappy soundstage planet cyclorama to a super-crisp CGI building is just as distracting as using the Rigel 7 painting again.

I said this in another thread, but I'm good with fixing the model shots, the ship effects. But when they alter the live action to a great degree, I really don't like it. The scene of Kirk, Spock, and two security guys firing in the corridor during "Wink of an Eye" is a good example of going overboard. The original scene went: firing phasters into camera, screen fills with green dancing energy; shot of Scalosian machine (dancing energy overlay); back to the guys as the phasers cut off. The point of the scene is to stun anyone in the corridor, because Scalosian weapons were fired at the guards. The enhanced version has them start firing, individual beams come out; still picture is shown with the arms of each person manipulated to look like they're moving them around as the beams hit a FORCE FIELD, and this goes on until the beams cut off. I can see they wanted to do something to get rid of the clip of the machine, since it's in the next room and is misplaced. But the problem is, they weren't being held back by a force field, the Scalosians fired weapons. Kirk and co. were doing a wide-field stun, but it doesn't come across. So, in this case (one of a few in the enhanced series), they misunderstood the point of the shot and created a discrepancy. And the effect looks more laughable than a misplaced clip of the next room. Thing like this keep me from embracing the effort wholeheartedly. I wind up appreciating individual episodes instead of the enhancement of the series as a whole.

I would have loved to just have them "fix" the shots; making them look as close to the 60's shots as possible, just able to stand up to the digital displays. Just spruce everything up, like the Hoth snow battle in Empire Strikes Back.

However, I'm thrilled they kept both versions for the Blu-Rays

Milo Bloom wrote:

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The quality of the writing can help people look past the day glo bridge sets and primary color uniform shirts, but when they cut to an exterior shot to show the enemy spaceship, and it looks like a kitbashed ERTL model, it just takes too many people out of the story.

I might just be more forgiving than most people, but while I've always acknowledged the wonky AMT kit was pretty poor, it never pulled me out of the episode. Even as a kid. I knew that was the best they could do. All my life (I'm 42), never had an issue with the effects, even when I upgraded to a 52 inch HDTV.

So, while I appreciate some of the enhancements, particularly on TDM, I always enjoy watching the old effects. I often watch old PRINTS of the show, and I almost always watch the Blu-Rays with the mono sound - even the enhanced episodes. While I like many of the new effects, but I can't stand the new sound effects and music screw ups. Personally, I prefer any version that gets me as close to the original episode broadcasts as possible. This is why I'll always have my VHS and laserdisc sets and at least one crappy, 30 year old tube TV set in my house.

[Therin of Andor]

Forbin wrote:

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I'm really sick of having to rebuy everything I like every time some schmuck develops a new video format.

We should insist that the technology should not be allowed to advance?

[Forbin]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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We should insist that the technology should not be allowed to advance?

We should insist that players for past formats remain available at a reasonable cost, forever.

I have thousands of dollars worth of Laserdiscs. I'm on my third player, this one a rebuild of an 80s model from a specialty place. How long will I be able to get replacement players? How should I feel about spending over $100 each for Critereon Collection discs of my favorite films, only to have the format die?

When my last Beta player died, and I couldn't find a new one anywhere because they were no longer manufactured, I threw away over 300 tapes of favorite TV episodes (some that still aren't available on DVD) and movies.

Having purchased some films on Beta, VHS, Laserdisc, and DVD, am I supposed to feel excited that they're now available on yet another new format? Or should I be slamming my head against a brick wall in frustration, like I'm tempted to do?

When the next post-DVD, Post-Blu-Ray format comes out (no doubt something along the line of datasticks with no moving parts, or direct-downloads), and manufacturers stop making Blu-Ray players, how should we feel?

And please don't say something techno-elitist like "all you have to do is transfer stuff to the new format." Who the hell has the time to do something like that with a huge coillection? Hell, we still have "regular-8mm" family films from the 40s and 50s that we haven't gotten around to putting on VHS yet! Not to mention tape-sync-sound super-8 films from the 70s that can never be transferred because it was a fleeting format that didn't last, and the equipment can't be found any more.

Hey, now, there's a format cascade: home movies! Let's see, we've had (just in our family) 16mm, 8mm, super-8, super-8 tape-sync sound, super-8 mag-stripe sound (50ft and 400ft), Portable Beta with separate camera, portable VHS with separate camera, and finally VHS-C. I managed to skip the DVD cams 'cause I couldn't afford them, and now they're obsolete too. Now I'm looking at VHS-C being unavailable and probably having to buy a digital camcorder that takes SDD or flash cards - which is very cool, but I still can't play Dad's 8mms from the 40s.

[Nardpuncher]

Hi, I didn't read all the other posts, so I'll just jump in.

I only have season 3 on DVD (remastered) and it's fun to watch to see what's been changed and all, but I can understand the purists, as we've already suspended our disbelief, and maybe we've seen these episodes many times, so when it's changed, it feels odd.
This goes for the Star Wars Special Editions too. The worst is when it even changes the story to a degree. You already told me what happened 20 years ago, now you go and change it!?

[BillJ]

Forbin wrote:

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We should insist that players for past formats remain available at a reasonable cost, forever.

That really isn't a viable business model. Hold open manufacturing centers for the thousand people who had VHS decks die during that year.

One of the things I've enjoyed about upgrading is handing off the older format to others. As I bought each Blu-Ray season set, my sixteen year old daughter would come ask for my copy of that season on DVD. I have a two and a half year old son that loves Star Trek. Imagine that when Blu-Ray is replaced, I'll be handing my Blu-Ray sets over to him.

I think the Blu-Ray sets have offered the best of both worlds for TOS fans. I really couldn't ask for anything more.

[Nardpuncher]

Well, they should just stop as soon as cute litle USBs that can hold 10 seasons of a TV show come out.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

TeutonicNights wrote:

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sacrificing live-action material for inserting FX of Vulcan into "Amok Time"

Eh?

[David cgc]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

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Eh?

There were three new establishing shots of the Vulcan surface in Amok Time. They were put in over shots of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy walking on to the set.

[nx1701g]

David cgc wrote:

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There were three new establishing shots of the Vulcan surface in Amok Time. They were put in over shots of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy walking on to the set.

I have to admit I kinda liked the new shots better.

[MANT!]

trevanian wrote:

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Truer words were only rarely spoken. Maybe they can put this in front of any new thread that gets onto the subject. For me, I just take the -r in TOS-r to mean retarded.

Opinions are like assholes..everybody's got one..

So pal lets get the gist of this..

You dislike TOS-R because of it's VERY existence..even though you have any and all versions of TOS freely available and don't have to watch it at all..but show contempt for those who actually enjoy it..such as myself...

You sound much like the following..

Fandamentalist (noun, pl.); fans who violently believe the only valid interpretation of any entertainment source is a dogmatic adherence to their favorite version of that source. Any change to the smallest detail is inherently unacceptable (see also “heresy”) and met with frantic scorn.