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Old January 4 2010, 06:02 PM   #136
Hyperspace05
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

T'Baio wrote: View Post
I think we all know now that the answer to the thread topic is "when they stop making over a billion dollars."
LOL indeed.

Last edited by Hyperspace05; January 4 2010 at 06:22 PM.
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Old January 4 2010, 06:10 PM   #137
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

Lt. Trull wrote: View Post
how about around 2050 when white people stop being the majority and become the minority and then start to get taken advantage of...
On that day, affirmative action will finally be repealed.
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Old January 4 2010, 06:38 PM   #138
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

Forbin wrote: View Post
DrummerBoy wrote: View Post
As a white person, I don't think I have anything to "feel sorry" for. Yeah, what white people did in the past was terrible and disgusting and I hate it. At the same time I haven't done any of it and neither did any of my direct ancestors. So I've nothing to feel guilty or sorry about.
This.

And I don't owe anybody reparations for things I didn't do.
Several people in this thread are misunderstanding the concept of white guilt. It is not so much about the crimes of our ancestors as it is about the privilege we enjoy as a result of their crimes. Many white people will deny that they enjoy special privileges, but that is because whiteness is obscured by being the dominant norm. That is, we are not trained to see the actions, behaviors and benefits that accrue to our race as being a result of our race (even though they are) because we are not trained to see our race at all - which is another psychological benefit of being white.

There's a lot more to this concept and it can be difficult to grasp - I still struggle with understanding it. But anyone who is interested can read this fairly good introduction:

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy MacIntosh
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Old January 4 2010, 09:13 PM   #139
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

Good wrote: View Post
T'Baio wrote: View Post
That's exactly why I've never understood all this "white guilt" poppycock. I haven't done anything. *shrug*
No, but you (and I) benefit from a society built on a lot of bad actions by our ancestors. Personally, that means that I owe it to the people we crapped on to make the whole world a better place.
Who do we owe, and what do we owe them?
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Old January 4 2010, 09:29 PM   #140
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

Brit wrote: View Post
firehawk12 wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

The assumption is that the "cure" for Jake is a natural one, that doesn't mean that it isn't some kind of technology, biological to be sure but still technology.

Brit

Yes, but given that all we know is what Cameron chose to tell us, I don't think you can be conclusive about the nature of Pandora without making assumptions.
Very true, and we all have to take our assumption's with a grain of salt, because we don't know everything that Cameron does. What I think this does prove is that the plot may seem simple on first glance, it really isn't. We wouldn't have all these questions and extrapolations if it were all that simple.

Brit
You're probably much more forgiving than I am, because I just chalk it up to poor/lazy writing.

The problem with SF is that very few people actually think about what they are writing - especially in film, where the emphasis is on generic action sequences and "money shots" more than plot.

Maybe I'm wrong and there's some "Avatar bible" on Cameron's desk that explains everything about the universe that's about as detailed as the revered JMS Babylon 5 bible. But I somehow doubt it.
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Old January 4 2010, 09:53 PM   #141
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

The Comedian wrote: View Post
Good wrote: View Post
T'Baio wrote: View Post
That's exactly why I've never understood all this "white guilt" poppycock. I haven't done anything. *shrug*
No, but you (and I) benefit from a society built on a lot of bad actions by our ancestors. Personally, that means that I owe it to the people we crapped on to make the whole world a better place.
Who do we owe, and what do we owe them?
I think he covered it:

the people we crapped on
to make the whole world a better place
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Old January 5 2010, 12:37 AM   #142
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

firehawk12 wrote: View Post
Maybe I'm wrong and there's some "Avatar bible" on Cameron's desk that explains everything about the universe that's about as detailed as the revered JMS Babylon 5 bible. But I somehow doubt it.
Actually I think that Cameron has an Avatar Bible setting on his desk, and the reason is that I bought this on Saturday.

http://www.amazon.com/Avatar-Confide...2647816&sr=1-3

Avatar - An Activist Survival Guide

It's got a lot of back story.

Brit
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Old January 5 2010, 12:51 AM   #143
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

^
Indeed. It's worth remembering that about Avatar: Whatever one thinks of the science, the story, or the lack of originality (a lot of which I'll agree with, mind) it's also clear that the film is the product of a long gestation period. Cameron's also made it clear he has a sequel in mind as a possiblity before the film even opened.

It may not be Babylon 5, but he's definitely given the matter some thought.
Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
Several people in this thread are misunderstanding the concept of white guilt. It is not so much about the crimes of our ancestors as it is about the privilege we enjoy as a result of their crimes.
This.

Also, it cannot be stressed enough that white guilt is a voluntary thing, and the white guilt fantasy is the white guy coming to terms with his guilt in a way that isn't all that flattering to those he's implicitly guilty to. Avatar and District 9 are films that in that sense have a very white perspective. This isn't Roots or anything, though I suppose you could argue for the whiteness of the TV miniseries and whatnot.
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Old January 5 2010, 01:07 AM   #144
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
DrummerBoy wrote: View Post
As a white person, I don't think I have anything to "feel sorry" for. Yeah, what white people did in the past was terrible and disgusting and I hate it. At the same time I haven't done any of it and neither did any of my direct ancestors. So I've nothing to feel guilty or sorry about.
This.

And I don't owe anybody reparations for things I didn't do.
Several people in this thread are misunderstanding the concept of white guilt. It is not so much about the crimes of our ancestors as it is about the privilege we enjoy as a result of their crimes. Many white people will deny that they enjoy special privileges, but that is because whiteness is obscured by being the dominant norm. That is, we are not trained to see the actions, behaviors and benefits that accrue to our race as being a result of our race (even though they are) because we are not trained to see our race at all - which is another psychological benefit of being white.

There's a lot more to this concept and it can be difficult to grasp - I still struggle with understanding it. But anyone who is interested can read this fairly good introduction:

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy MacIntosh
That much about white privilege being true, Avatar is not a movie about it. It is a movie about a paralyzed man who seizes the chance to fix his condition by earning money serving as a probe into another culture-the 'probe' in this case being that of an Avatar.

In this form, the handicapped man becomes capable of walking again, and doing all the things that he couldn't do anymore. So if anything, the movie's all about a handicapped man who becomes something more than what his disability allows, and then uses said new ability to fight for the rights of the culture he's now involved in not to be exploited by his own culture.

If anything, Avatar is a fictional version of the Bruno Manser story, in which a man from Western civilization ended up fighting for the rights of an indigenous culture (the Penan people of the Eastern Malaysian state of Sarawak, on the island of Borneo, near the Indonesian border of Kalimantan). That's what been forgotten in this article, simply because the filmmakers didn't cast Will Smith or Taye Diggs or any other person of color as the protagonist. All it takes is a little digging and research-the writer of this article at IO9 couldn't do it, but this person of colour (Afro-Canadian) was able to do so, and he wasn't offended as much as she was. Too bad for her that they couldn't see how good this movie was, but what else can or do you expect from a writer like Annalee Newitz?

Last edited by Dusty Ayres; January 5 2010 at 06:54 PM.
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Old January 5 2010, 01:34 AM   #145
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

firehawk12 wrote: View Post
Maybe I'm wrong and there's some "Avatar bible" on Cameron's desk that explains everything about the universe that's about as detailed as the revered JMS Babylon 5 bible. But I somehow doubt it.
You're wrong.
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Old January 5 2010, 02:37 AM   #146
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

T'Baio wrote: View Post
firehawk12 wrote: View Post
Maybe I'm wrong and there's some "Avatar bible" on Cameron's desk that explains everything about the universe that's about as detailed as the revered JMS Babylon 5 bible. But I somehow doubt it.
You're wrong.
Ah, so it IS just bad writing then.

Either that, or his encyclopedia is just full of entries on "blue people and rhino monsters".
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Old January 5 2010, 02:40 AM   #147
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

^
As opposed to Elves, Venetians, and the Post-Colonial Nation (in space)?

Really Babylon 5's strength here is it's just better written. It could have used more hammerhead rhinos, in retrospect.
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Old January 5 2010, 03:29 AM   #148
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

Kegg wrote: View Post
^
As opposed to Elves, Venetians, and the Post-Colonial Nation (in space)?

Really Babylon 5's strength here is it's just better written. It could have used more hammerhead rhinos, in retrospect.
I've always thought that B5 was horribly written from a dialog perspective. Some the actors who had to recite the stuff didn't help either. Others actually improved it by their deleivery, but not by much.
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Old January 5 2010, 04:18 AM   #149
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

Well comparing a 'B5 bible' to the 'Avatar bible' (or whatever Cameron would call it) is not a direct comparison.

A series bible like for B5 would naturally cover more character arcs and plotlines, whereas for Avatar more time was spent on developing the setting (the Pandora biosphere, the Na'vi language, Human technology). So it is a bit of apples and oranges.

Of course Cameron claims to have the Avatar 2 and 3 plot lines roughly sketched out, but that is far from the level of detail needed to lay the background for 20+ hours and more characters.
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Old January 5 2010, 04:24 AM   #150
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Re: When Will White People Stop Making Movies Like "Avatar"?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The Comedian wrote: View Post
Who do we owe, and what do we owe them?
I think he covered it:

the people we crapped on
to make the whole world a better place
But that's the thing. WE didn't crap on anyone. So why should we be made to pay for something we didn't do?

I'm not denying that there are 'privileges', as such. But we didn't ask for that. It just happened. We are not responsible for the crimes of our ancestors. If somebody's born into a rich family, would you force them to surrender their wealth to the government? Is the current lineup of the Chicago White Sox responsible for this?

Now of course we should *always* work to make the world a better place - nobody's saying we shouldn't. But *all* people should do that, regardless of race. It's not a special obligation for 'whitey' to do it.
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