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Old December 19 2009, 02:56 AM   #481
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Yes, the actor needed knee surgery, so they must've known ahead of time that he was going to be on crutches and/or using a cane for awhile.

And speaking of Criminal Minds...ooooh a creepy thought came into my head. Foyet v. Dukat. Just get the Duel of the Fates music and it would be complete!!
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Old December 19 2009, 07:09 PM   #482
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

I liked Macet's dilemma a lot, and his final decision. I think you did a good job balancing the various aspects of his character, keeping him likable and noble (none of the ruthlessness all too common in the ranks of Central Command) while still thinking like a soldier rather than a philosopher, making the decision to think in terms of military objectives. Macet may be a principled man, but he is also a soldier and he acts like one, as he should. Of course, the distinction with certain other military characters is that Macet considers the situation thoughtfully rather than employing violence for its own sake. Still, the Cardassian culture's "Justice Must Be Done, And Bloodily" mentality still poked through ever so slightly, a nice reminder that Macet is not Federation. It was skillfully balanced, though, by the decision to permit the vessels carrying Federation personnel not to participate in the destruction. I wonder what the Starfleet personnel will think of it in the days to come. How will they define Macet's actions, not having our insight into his head ? Was it simple kindness, an acknowledgement of two cultures' separate ideologies despite their kinship here, was it a move carrying a hint of judgement at their hesitance and an affirmation of Cardassia's ways over those of its new Federation allies, or was it simply commanding officer martyrdom that ensures the leader takes the responsibility? Those Starfleeters not there on the bridge with Macet might have endless speculation ahead of them...
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Old December 19 2009, 07:40 PM   #483
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

You're very right about Macet--he very much IS a soldier. Thoughtful, but pragmatic. I dunno if you remember him well from "The Wounded," but Marc Alaimo very much portrayed him that way. His speech and mannerisms are VERY different from Dukat--very direct when he speaks (a very level, not melodramatic tone), very controlled when he acts (not swaggering, but sometimes kinda marching from place to place...very much a soldier's mannerisms--it's more...he sees where he wants to go and he gets from point A to point B in the most direct, expedient manner possible). He was even controlled to the point of removing himself from the bridge when he was angry at Picard for not helping his people quickly enough, rather than doing the Dukat thing and going off in Picard's face. Given the extreme control that Mr. Alaimo seems to have over his nonverbal cues, I think this had to be very deliberate on his part and to me, it really informs how I write the character.

Now, personally...I know Macet wasn't judging the Starfleeters. I would say he genuinely felt bad when he saw the look on Spirodopoulos' face and realized what position he'd almost put him and the other Starfleeters in. But you're right, not everyone was privy to what Spirodopoulos and Folani saw.

On the other hand, it might be good that Ensign Folani was there too, and not just Spirodopoulos.

BTW--has anyone caught the historical reference, yet?
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Old December 19 2009, 10:14 PM   #484
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

^Was it that the tactic was first used against the Borg? (A ref to "Best of Both Worlds", perhaps?"

Anyway...yes, I too wonder how the Starfleet folks will view this. I half-viewed this as a "You are incapable of making the hard decisions, so we'll do it for you..."

Now, I know Macet's didn't mean it that way, but...frankly, I was almost wishing that Spiro would say--quietly, in a "private conversation" tone, of course--something like, "If it's all the same to you, sir...I'll be able to do it."
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Old December 19 2009, 10:37 PM   #485
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
^Was it that the tactic was first used against the Borg? (A ref to "Best of Both Worlds", perhaps?"
Good catch on the Trek reference, but there's also an Earth history reference as well.

Anyway...yes, I too wonder how the Starfleet folks will view this. I half-viewed this as a "You are incapable of making the hard decisions, so we'll do it for you..."

Now, I know Macet's didn't mean it that way, but...frankly, I was almost wishing that Spiro would say--quietly, in a "private conversation" tone, of course--something like, "If it's all the same to you, sir...I'll be able to do it."
The trouble is, I don't think Starfleet regs would've allowed him to do it--that's VERY much against what I think Starfleet would allow. Now, we know Spirodopoulos isn't a total stickler for the rules, but the trouble is that he's having to play two roles here.

There's a difficult political game Spirodopoulos is playing here with his own people, and basically it's this: he's bending the rules BIG time here by allying with the rebel Cardassians instead of trying to escape back to Starfleet, something that some might even see as a flagrant violation of the Military Code of Conduct. (Whereas I think Spirodopoulos sees it as taking advantage of an unprecedented tactical situation during a time when the rest of the Federation has been knocked out of the war by the Breen weapon--not aiding or accepting favors from the enemy, but helping an unexpected ally.) So in order to accomplish his objectives without the Cardassians OR the Starfleet soldiers fearing he's betrayed them, he has to work with the Cardassians AND keep his people buffered, to a certain degree. They HAVE to feel that HE is looking out for THEM and them first, even as he is working with the Cardassians on THEIR tactical objectives. AND, he has to make sure he doesn't lose his own people's confidence by letting it be thought that he's become "too Cardassian." Look back at the situation where he gets between his people and Gul Speros and you'll see another example of that dilemma being laid out.

And Macet most certainly did not feel he was being patronizing and I don't think Spirodopoulos took it that way. Rather, I saw it as Macet doing what Dukat and many other guls never could: acknowledging an error before an alien. The Cardassian reputation is one of arrogance and seeing oneself as superior to alien races. Macet, however, is acknowledging that he made an inappropriate call as far as the Starfleet officers are concerned, and I actually think that built trust with Spirodopoulos, that he was willing to do that.

I am glad, however, to see the debate starting--I was wondering when people were going to really start hitting the controversial issues that are going on here.
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Old December 19 2009, 11:28 PM   #486
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

^As ye say, lass. I stand corrected.

So...yeah, I give up as to the historical ref.
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Old December 19 2009, 11:34 PM   #487
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

No insult intended, of course--that's just what was going through my head as a writer.

The historical reference was Article 58, something I became VERY familiar with while reading Aleksander Solzhenitsyn's books, The Gulag Archipelago. I know it's a bit of a sinister reference, but it seemed appropriate considering the Orwellian society we're dealing with. In fact, check out the exact sections Macet cites...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58
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Old December 19 2009, 11:54 PM   #488
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Foyet = Dukat (creepy) + Weyoun (sadist).

And oops! Failed to mention Macet's choice- well played, NG. Taking lives is hard, esp. since there may have been sympathizers down there... who knows? But it may have been the end of it all to leave them there... and Macet is thoughtful, not malicious. And he didn't make Spir. do it.
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Old December 20 2009, 01:17 AM   #489
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Marie1 wrote: View Post
Foyet = Dukat (creepy) + Weyoun (sadist).
Heh...as far as I'm concerned, Dukat is creepy AND in certain ways, a sadist.

And oops! Failed to mention Macet's choice- well played, NG. Taking lives is hard, esp. since there may have been sympathizers down there... who knows? But it may have been the end of it all to leave them there... and Macet is thoughtful, not malicious. And he didn't make Spir. do it.
It WAS tough, because of exactly what you said, that there could be sympathizers. But I think Cardassians do see things differently than the Starfleet types--and it's almost...many of them would rather be innocent and die knowing the guilty will come along with them.
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Old December 20 2009, 02:48 AM   #490
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

From Ad Astra:

Glorious. Simply glorious. The detail. The execution of the plan. The intricacy of the different stages and the variances in responses. All make for a great action sequence as this tale continues to play out impressively. All the while maintaining its unique Cardassian voice and feel. Everything is couched and skewed through a Cardassian lens, and it makes for an extraordinary reading experience. Berat, Macet and Mike are such heroes one roots for them in all earnest and we cheer when the plan goes right. Terrific and absorbing.


Caw blimey! It's over and right enough when they reach the nebula what then? a brutal battle and brilliantly realised throughout and brought to a climatic end with a brutal underlining as the forces turn on the planet and eradicate all that is left. The Cardassian ways certainly are no the Federation ways. But coldly it does make sense and I imagine it really pain Macet and Berat to take this action.
Wonderful combat scene - brilliantly conveyed and more wonderful too for the technical details would read right and the view through the engineering eyes of Berat. Exceedingly well crafted moves and actions and fitting descriptions to go with and all grounded in Berat's engineering knowledge and of course in a very Cardassian way.
And still we have Mike taking the guns and giving us a human insight into the Cardassian way of things. Brilliantly done Nerys.
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Old December 20 2009, 06:10 AM   #491
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

And I thank you once again for reading.
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Old December 20 2009, 08:27 PM   #492
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Greetings, Nerys, thank you for the early Christmas gift!.
All the best wishes to you and your precious ones!
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Old December 21 2009, 03:35 AM   #493
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

No problem...and I'm glad you liked it!
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Old December 21 2009, 11:25 PM   #494
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Great stuff.

One of my favourite stories on the board.
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Old December 22 2009, 12:21 AM   #495
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

^Amen, BrotherBenny!
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