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Old December 14 2009, 05:01 PM   #466
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Noel Ghemor wrote: View Post
BTW, did it sound odd at all to you, as the Jem'Hadar expert, that Volet'aval might not be totally in love with the idea of losing his own life (i.e. hoping that perhaps his service can be teaching others in his "old" age)?
Slightly- because they aren't afraid to die- but as Goron'agar pointed out- death is it, so... then what? I'm sure there is lingering doubt that death won't glorify the Founders... or do anything... despite their mantra. And what if in surviving they could accomplish more? And what about when they know that deep down, they're dying for a stupid, Vorta-induced reason? They aren't idiots... as brought out by the Jem'Hadar's annoyance at having to ask permission before firing, wasting valuable time.

It stands to reason that Jem'Hadar would want to share their knowledge and experience with younger ones, whether it was just for fulfilling their duty or not.

My question about that installment is- is there a Vorta still on Volet'aval's ship? Did he get permission for the suicide run?
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Old December 15 2009, 02:17 AM   #467
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Noel Ghemor wrote: View Post
A lot of Trek battles seem, sometimes, to have no rhyme or reason to them. Now, I LOVED First Contact, but I really wanted to know WHY that spot on the cube was a weak point, what mechanism was still connecting Picard to the Collective, etc.
Actually, J.M. Dillard's novelization reveals that Picard heard from the Borg that they were diverting all emergency power to that section.

Or...something like that.

It was just that they were damaged the most there.
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Old December 15 2009, 04:20 AM   #468
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Marie1 wrote: View Post
Noel Ghemor wrote: View Post
BTW, did it sound odd at all to you, as the Jem'Hadar expert, that Volet'aval might not be totally in love with the idea of losing his own life (i.e. hoping that perhaps his service can be teaching others in his "old" age)?
Slightly- because they aren't afraid to die- but as Goron'agar pointed out- death is it, so... then what? I'm sure there is lingering doubt that death won't glorify the Founders... or do anything... despite their mantra. And what if in surviving they could accomplish more? And what about when they know that deep down, they're dying for a stupid, Vorta-induced reason? They aren't idiots... as brought out by the Jem'Hadar's annoyance at having to ask permission before firing, wasting valuable time.

It stands to reason that Jem'Hadar would want to share their knowledge and experience with younger ones, whether it was just for fulfilling their duty or not.
The Jem'Hadar, to my estimation, actually come closer to being fully fleshed-out individuals than the Vorta. The Vorta are more servile, less independent, I suspect because they actually come face-to-face with the Founders and need to be trusted like lapdogs. (Look at the way the Female Founder reacted to losing the last Weyoun--like losing the family pet.)

Make no mistake--Volet'aval's not afraid to die and has no hesitation about making the hard decision to do so. But, I thought it would be interesting to have a Jem'Hadar that perhaps aspired to a longer-lasting purpose in life.

My question about that installment is- is there a Vorta still on Volet'aval's ship? Did he get permission for the suicide run?
Lessek was such a backwater that the Vorta was directing everything from the ground station, not bothering to station one on the ships. There was never any real expectation of an attack where there wouldn't be time for him to beam out to the station or to the ships if required.

As for Gul Verest (who ran HIS post from the orbital station), he was a Dominion suck-up. There were Jem'Hadar stationed there, but all it took was a signal from the Vorta for Verest to do his bidding. (Those signal intercepts, BTW, constituted the proof Berat demanded before ordering Verest's death.) The ships could also shred through the station very quickly should they so desire.

As for the suicide run, with no more Vorta around, Volet'aval used his best judgment. In this case, the targets were CLEAR rebels, and he could act without permission from the Vorta because permission was already given. Remember, even if he'd figured out who Macet was before the attack, he was already under orders to eliminate Cardassian rebels and had been since Rondac. Therefore, Volet'aval acted upon his standing orders and is sacrificing himself to diminish the Cardassian rebels.
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Old December 15 2009, 05:04 PM   #469
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

You're right- most of what we know about the Vorta has been implied, or spoken by other characters- or for that matter notes in scripts about parts that in many cases weren't shot. Damar indicates most Weyouns were sadistic, Weyoun's actions imply his interest in "sexuality" of various, probably unpleasant, kinds, etc.

With the Jem'Hadar, we see it, hear it... often to the contrary of what the characters, esp. the Vorta say.

Thanks for clarifying the Vorta thing, I wanted to be sure. In that case, making a suicide run is definately high on the Jem'Hadar's list of options in a like-circumstance. I do like that this Volet. isn't fatalistic, that he had thoughts for the future if he made it, while at the same time being tough and fearless.
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Old December 18 2009, 08:29 PM   #470
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Watch for a historical reference here, as it all comes to a head...

---------
“Zopreg—evade!

The remaining Jem’Hadar vessel began to swell on the viewscreen even as the fighter pilot fought to outmaneuver this much larger vessel. The Jem’Hadar helmsman was good…no matter how the Gălor dipped and dived and swooped, he matched their every maneuver.

It was all Spirodopoulos could do to tear his eyes away from that image to focus on the Cardassian tactical console that he needed all of his concentration to manipulate. His first impulse was to switch over to torpedoes—but then he remembered—as if he’d ever really forgotten: he was aboard a Cardassian ship. And Cardassian plasma torpedoes wouldn’t do much good until the shields were severely weakened.

The Hide’eki and two La’aghur darted in and out between the battlecruiser and their ship, and the other four Gă’ălour trailed along, pounding as hard as they could at the Jem’Hadar’s shields, which according to Macet’s commentary, were still nowhere near as weak as they hoped.

“Spirodopoulos!” Macet called. “Simultaneous fire from disruptors and phasers! Keep it intermittent…I’m going to be shifting frequencies as you fire.”

That tactic gave Spirodopoulos a shiver…it was one of the basic maneuvers every potential tactical officer was taught for combat with the Borg. Of course, that didn’t mean the Borg were the only enemy against which this tactic was effective—with too many disparate frequencies for the Jem’Hadar to modulate their shields to counter, so many different kinds of stresses on the ship from disruptors and phasers both, someone was likely to punch through in time. Still, he couldn’t help the association.

He couldn’t tell how much time passed as he continued to tap and retarget, tap and retarget…was it seconds? A minute?

He almost missed it when a shot from the Ghiletz raked into the battlecruiser’s hull. It wasn’t that deep of a wound, or even in that critical an area, but it was a direct hit. Three of the Hide’eki swooped in on the spot as the Ghiletz swung back around to hammer at other portions of the ship: they could leave no section of the Jem’Hadar’s shields unharassed.

The Jem’Hadar, for their part, were gaining on the new Gălor at an incredible .995 c—the fastest Spirodopoulos had ever seen any ship manage without the partial-warp field used to protect the ship from relativistic effects pushing them all the way across the light barrier, or sacrificing so much maneuverability as to make all that speed useless. Then another shot landed on the Jem’Hadar vessel. And another—straight ahead of the Gălor.

“Torpedoes!” shouted Macet.

In what felt close to being one fluid motion, the Greek officer keyed the weapons switch with his little finger and fired with his index finger as rapidly as the Cardassian vessel’s torpedo tubes would allow. A brace of torpedoes smashed down through the hull breach opened by the disruptors.

“We’ve hit their command center!” Macet called. Unlike Federation and Cardassian vessels, the ‘bridge’ of a Jem’Hadar ship was buried several decks into the ship instead of sitting with just one reinforced hull plate between them and the vacuum. Scoring a hit in this area meant serious internal damage to the Jem’Hadar ship as well as a critical blow to its command structure.

Gul Berat’s voice cracked over the open channel. “They’re overloading their warp core—all ships break off and withdraw to a safe distance!

Polarize viewscreen!” Macet barked to Folani.

And mere seconds after—the light of a thousand suns flashed over the bridge. The ship bucked, then steadied itself as the inertial dampers took over.

The Dominion forces were destroyed—it was over.

Almost.

Macet’s voice dropped much lower than it had been; even Spirodopoulos almost found himself straining to hear it. “Bring us back into Lessekda orbit,” he ordered Zopreg.

The Greek man in Cardassian armor raised an eyebrow at that one. Why would they return to the site of destruction, when surely any nearby Dominion forces would soon divert to investigate the loss of contact with their comrades? “Ensign Folani…open a channel to all ships.” Just as before, the muscular Bajoran woman complied without a word.

“There is one last task which duty compels us to perform,” he announced to the Thirteenth Order fleet. “It is not without great heaviness of heart that I order this…but for the sake of reclaiming our beloved Union I have no other alternative by which we can ensure our uncontested escape, and ensure that the resources we have used—and that in our absence, the Dominion would surely reclaim—cannot be used against us. By the authority vested in me by Article 58, Section 1-Batut and Section 3 of the Cardassian Articles of Jurisprudence, I hereby order the complete and immediate destruction of all facilities in the Lessekda system. There will be no warnings…through the work of our operatives, and during the course of the battle itself, those who remain have had their chance, and enough prisoners have been taken from those who chose against the Union.”

Article 58—the section of the Articles of Jurisprudence that spelled out the penalties for treason, Spirodopoulos remembered with a chill. Folani’s eyes filled with fire.

“Prepare to initiate fire,” the Hăzăkda gul said. “Macet out.”

His eyes fixed upon the ranking Starfleet officer, and he opened his mouth, ready to give him the order. “Spirodopoulos—”

The Starfleet officer met Macet’s gaze with his own, quiet but adamant. “Gul…are you sure we can’t give them a chance? There may still be innocent people in there, people who didn’t have a chance to contact us—”

Mercifully, he didn’t get a chance to finish his sentence…Macet spared him the necessity. “Their families will understand. We can’t risk warning the treacherous majority, and our people understand the ways of sacrifice. I hope that after what we have begun today, that soon there will be no more need for Article 58 in its current form—but that day has not yet arrived.” Folani still wore a look of thinly-veiled disgust—but at that last statement, she broke off from staring angrily into the console to regard him once again.

“And,” Macet softly and solemnly added, locking his dark brown eyes with the olive ones of Spirodopoulos, “please forgive my error. I should not have even suggested putting such a task on you, or any of your people. Our ways are not your ways.” He edged closer to the human. “Allow me the controls. If anyone should bear the responsibility for this, it should be me. I will act—but hold no doubt: I will not enjoy it.”

Spirodopoulos studied Macet’s beige features. It was quite striking, given the resemblance he shared with Gul Dukat, to behold this subdued, almost grim expression on those features: this was a man who took no pleasure in what he was about to do—indeed, who longed for an alternative but in his system could find none. It still didn’t sit well with Spirodopoulos, what Macet was about to do…but at least this man wasn’t ashamed to show some honest regret for his fiery judgment against the survivors.

Spirodopoulos was no relativist, yet the fact that Macet was clearly struggling within himself about his actions did help. Somewhat. Slowly, reluctantly, Spirodopoulos stepped aside.

Macet ordered Folani to open a channel once again. “I have one amendment to my previous orders,” he stated. “Only the five Gă’ălour shall be required to fire upon Cardassian facilities. That will be sufficient.” Spirodopoulos gave a stone-faced nod of thanks: by this revision, Macet had spared all of the ships carrying Starfleet soldiers, save the one where the gul himself was prepared to man the controls, from bearing this burden. “To those ships—sesoghoke sesva’!”

Execute now!

Under fire from the new Gălor, the Romac, and the Trager, the orbital drydock joined the vanquished Jem’Hadar vessels and unfortunate Hide’eki in the ring of debris that would circle Lessek for years to come. The Ghiletz easily destroyed the planetside base, which still had not been able to raise its shields after Iymender’s final act of sabotage, and the Sherouk scoured away the evidence of the prison-turned-rebel-base where the Thirteenth Order first came to be.

No one spoke a word until Macet reported, “It is done. Berat,” he called over the open comlink, “based on your assessment of current conditions, will our course headings be sufficiently disguised?”

Yes, Macet,” came the youngest gul’s voice, far less ebullient than what Spirodopoulos remembered from those face-to-face meetings. “The ion-storm effect will wash away our impulse trail within the hour as long as we maintain no more than half-impulse until we go to warp—which we must do just barely outside the planetary gravity well. I am re-transmitting the rendezvous coordinates via tightbeam now.” These coordinates, Spirodopoulos recalled, lay within what the Cardassians called the Kounamab Nebula—McAllister, to the Federation, a Mutara-class nebula that would temporarily hide them while they planned…whatever was to come. It was a transit that should, as long as all ships were able to maintain Warp 8, take less than half an hour to make.

“Very well,” Macet acknowledged. “Make all absolutely necessary medical transfers immediately—emergencies only,” he appended with a regretful look at Iymender, who gritted his teeth now against the excruciating pain of his shattered ankle. “All further medical and personnel transfers will have to wait until we reach our rendezvous. Engineering and investigative crews,” he said, speaking in the latter case of what Starfleet called the science division, “I realize we have many repairs to effect, but I want each of you to detach a team of at least three to begin work on altering our weapons and engine signatures.

“We depart the Lessek system in three minutes. Men and women of the Thirteenth Order—you have my congratulations. And my gratitude.”

It was over. It was actually over. They had won. A tempestuous mix of emotions churned through Spirodopoulos—weariness, gratitude, elation, sorrow, and uncertainty. After they reached the nebula—what then?

---------

WHEW. That battle is easily the most complex thing I've ever written. EVER.

There'll be a definite change of pace for the next few chapters.
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Old December 18 2009, 08:49 PM   #471
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Excellent--simply excellent.

Kinda painful, too, the last decision by Macet. Painful...but necessary. In the end, every war has at least one major hard decision, with no easy answers--one in which the neccesary decision is inevitably the most painful to swallow.

Brilliant, this touch. My compliments.
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Old December 18 2009, 09:04 PM   #472
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

"Unlike Federation and Cardassian vessels, the ‘bridge’ of a Jem’Hadar ship was buried several decks into the ship instead of sitting with just one reinforced hull plate between them and the vacuum."

What was the Federation thinking?
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Old December 18 2009, 09:05 PM   #473
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

^My guess?

Tradition.
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Old December 18 2009, 09:06 PM   #474
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Excellent--simply excellent.

Kinda painful, too, the last decision by Macet. Painful...but necessary. In the end, every war has at least one major hard decision, with no easy answers--one in which the neccesary decision is inevitably the most painful to swallow.

Brilliant, this touch. My compliments.
Thanks, and you are very, VERY right about tough decisions in war. That was a decision I wrestled with myself, as the writer--whether he should go ahead with it or no. But it just felt like he was pushing me that way.

Marie1 wrote: View Post
"Unlike Federation and Cardassian vessels, the ‘bridge’ of a Jem’Hadar ship was buried several decks into the ship instead of sitting with just one reinforced hull plate between them and the vacuum."

What was the Federation thinking?
Believe me. That question comes up a LOT when I write.
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Old December 18 2009, 09:12 PM   #475
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Noel Ghemor wrote: View Post
Marie1 wrote: View Post
"Unlike Federation and Cardassian vessels, the ‘bridge’ of a Jem’Hadar ship was buried several decks into the ship instead of sitting with just one reinforced hull plate between them and the vacuum."

What was the Federation thinking?
Believe me. That question comes up a LOT when I write.
Maybe RL is right, maybe it is tradition... but it sure seems like a silly one! May wanna put a couple layers of bulkheads and forcefields between the captain and outter space!

" a regretful look at Iymender"
Ahhh! Still no help for him... =(
Yet...
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Old December 18 2009, 09:17 PM   #476
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

BTW, a weird, weird coincidence with Iymender. I'd picked out Matthew Gray Gubler as the actor for Iymender over a year ago. Well, do any of you watch Criminal Minds, and have you noticed that this season, he's on crutches? Turns out the actor had knee surgery, but it's been quite something from an author's observational standpoint, considering where Iymender gets his mannerisms.

As for Iymender, he should be getting help in half an hour or so. SUCKS that he has to wait, yes...but they can't stay in the area long.
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Old December 18 2009, 09:37 PM   #477
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Well done, very well handled. No details lost in the telling...
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Old December 18 2009, 09:40 PM   #478
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Noel Ghemor wrote: View Post
BTW, a weird, weird coincidence with Iymender. I'd picked out Matthew Gray Gubler as the actor for Iymender over a year ago. Well, do any of you watch Criminal Minds, and have you noticed that this season, he's on crutches? Turns out the actor had knee surgery, but it's been quite something from an author's observational standpoint, considering where Iymender gets his mannerisms.

As for Iymender, he should be getting help in half an hour or so. SUCKS that he has to wait, yes...but they can't stay in the area long.

Hmm....

On that note, do you have any actors in mind for Berat, Spiro, and Folani?
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Old December 18 2009, 09:55 PM   #479
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Berat...well, I dunno how he'd do as an actor, but in appearance and temperament, I definitely have Cal Ripken, Jr. in mind. For Spirodopoulos, Rufus Sewell (though for the role he'd need to speak with a near-American accent, just a trace of Greek).

Folani, not sure yet. The actress would be of African descent and keep her hair cut short, but I'm truly not sure who to cast. While I'm reminded of the actress who played Lily Sloane as far as basic mannerisms, Folani's hair and complexion are darker.

Ooooh, and thanks for your kind words, Mistral--I really appreciate your reading!
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Old December 19 2009, 12:06 AM   #480
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

Noel Ghemor wrote: View Post
BTW, a weird, weird coincidence with Iymender. I'd picked out Matthew Gray Gubler as the actor for Iymender over a year ago. Well, do any of you watch Criminal Minds, and have you noticed that this season, he's on crutches? Turns out the actor had knee surgery, but it's been quite something from an author's observational standpoint, considering where Iymender gets his mannerisms.

As for Iymender, he should be getting help in half an hour or so. SUCKS that he has to wait, yes...but they can't stay in the area long.
I do indeed watch that show!
I remember the ep. where he hurt his leg- did the actor need surgery as well? He'd be good for the role of Iymender I think!
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