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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old December 10 2009, 08:10 PM   #496
Harvey
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
You couldn't do that, though, and have it be the same show. They would have to include the SD episode in it's entirety. With TOS, the HD versions are the original versions, just with an HD transfer. With TNG, the remastered episodes would actually be completely different versions, not even really the same show. In other words, TOS remastered is just a new transfer of the original episode, whereas TNG remastered would be an entirely new edit made from the original film.
That's just nonsense. The episodes were shot on 35mm film. Re-transfering that film in order to increase the image quality hardly prevents it from being the same show. Nobody is talking about re-cutting the series. The 'entirely new edit' you're writing about will indeed be exactly the same edit as it existed in 480p NTSC video, except in 1080p HD video.

The only reason Star Trek was mastered on film and not videotape like every other series in the franchise was due to technical limitations in the 1960s. Like every television series of the period, it was never meant to be seen in anything other than SD color television. But, now that HD exists, and since it was shot and mastered on film, CBS Paramount can turn it around for some extra profit with little investment.

Looking up the video that could fit on the disc, a Blu-Ray can hold 9 hours of HD video or 23 hours of SD video. Assuming 5 episodes per disc, which is the going rate on my Blu-Rays for the Prisoner, you could have roughly four hours of HD video (five episodes) and still have room for 10 hours of SD video. 3D Master is right on that count.

That said, seamless branching is still the way to go. The only new material (potentially) being created for these episodes is visual effects material. Including all the live action in SD is a waste of disc space that could be devoted to other features.
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Old December 10 2009, 09:24 PM   #497
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Harvey wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
You couldn't do that, though, and have it be the same show. They would have to include the SD episode in it's entirety. With TOS, the HD versions are the original versions, just with an HD transfer. With TNG, the remastered episodes would actually be completely different versions, not even really the same show. In other words, TOS remastered is just a new transfer of the original episode, whereas TNG remastered would be an entirely new edit made from the original film.
That's just nonsense. The episodes were shot on 35mm film.
Yes, they were shot on 35mm film, but edited on videotape. The episodes don't exist on film. What exists are the original negatives, which include takes that were used, alternate takes that were never used, bloopers, outtakes, etc. They can't just make a new transfer of the film the way they did with TOS, they have to actually put the show back in post-production and reedit the the film into an episode (sans music and sound FX, which are usable). How exactly would that not be an entirely new edit?

Re-transfering that film in order to increase the image quality hardly prevents it from being the same show.
But again, it's not simply retransfering the film. They have to edit the film into episodes all over again. And no matter how careful they try to be, there will inevitably be discrepencies where something doesn't exactly match up, a wrong angle is accidentally used, a split second shot can't be found, etc.

Nobody is talking about re-cutting the series. The 'entirely new edit' you're writing about will indeed be exactly the same edit as it existed in 480p NTSC video, except in 1080p HD video.
Please explain how raw film that is edited into an episode almost from scratch isn't an "entirely new edit."
Harvey wrote: View Post
That said, seamless branching is still the way to go.
Even putting aside everything else I mentioned, the biggest problem with this is that every time a live action scene would include an original special effect, the live action footage would suddenly and noticeably drop to SD. It would be a jarring viewing experience to say the least.
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Old December 10 2009, 09:36 PM   #498
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

The video masters were almost certainly encoded with timecode which links each frame of the master to the exact frame taken from the original negative. It's a relatively simple process, once the original negative has been re-scanned in HD, to use this timecode to exactly recreate the SD edit in HD.

For this reason, the "inevitable discrepencies" you envision simply won't occur. And, even if the HD edits had to be created by hand, you greatly underestimate the skill and precision of professional editors.

Speaking of the "jarring" transition between HD video and SD visual effects, the visual effects will in the very least be upconverted. Watching the episodes wouldn't be outside of the experience of the new Babylon 5 transfers, which is problematic, but still quite watchable. And, if the film elements of the visual effects are recomposited rather than recreated digitally, they can be seen in true HD in their original form.
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Old December 10 2009, 09:45 PM   #499
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
You couldn't do that, though, and have it be the same show. They would have to include the SD episode in it's entirety. With TOS, the HD versions are the original versions, just with an HD transfer. With TNG, the remastered episodes would actually be completely different versions, not even really the same show. In other words, TOS remastered is just a new transfer of the original episode, whereas TNG remastered would be an entirely new edit made from the original film.
That's just nonsense. The episodes were shot on 35mm film.
Yes, they were shot on 35mm film, but edited on videotape. The episodes don't exist on film. What exists are the original negatives, which include takes that were used, alternate takes that were never used, bloopers, outtakes, etc. They can't just make a new transfer of the film the way they did with TOS, they have to actually put the show back in post-production and reedit the the film into an episode (sans music and sound FX, which are usable). How exactly would that not be an entirely new edit?


But again, it's not simply retransfering the film. They have to edit the film into episodes all over again. And no matter how careful they try to be, there will inevitably be discrepencies where something doesn't exactly match up, a wrong angle is accidentally used, a split second shot can't be found, etc.

Nobody is talking about re-cutting the series. The 'entirely new edit' you're writing about will indeed be exactly the same edit as it existed in 480p NTSC video, except in 1080p HD video.
Please explain how raw film that is edited into an episode almost from scratch isn't an "entirely new edit."
Harvey wrote: View Post
That said, seamless branching is still the way to go.
Even putting aside everything else I mentioned, the biggest problem with this is that every time a live action scene would include an original special effect, the live action footage would suddenly and noticeably drop to SD. It would be a jarring viewing experience to say the least.
I would disagree. If something such as a phaser effect were to be replaced, the upconverted original would be an option, as would the newly recreated HD version. I don't believe there's a need to use seamless branching on something as trivial as a phaser effect, but for the space shots, that would make sense.
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Old December 10 2009, 09:46 PM   #500
Hober Mallow
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Harvey wrote: View Post
The video masters were almost certainly encoded with timecode which links each frame of the master to the exact frame taken from the original negative. It's a relatively simple process, once the original negative has been re-scanned in HD, to use this timecode to exactly recreate the SD edit in HD.
Yes, but it's still a recreation of the original and a complete waste of time. The purists who want the originals preserved and included won't be getting it, and those of us who don't care wouldn't watch it anyway, so it would be a waste of time.

Speaking of the "jarring" transition between HD video and SD visual effects, the visual effects will in the very least be upconverted. Watching the episodes wouldn't be outside of the experience of the new Babylon 5 transfers, which is problematic, but still quite watchable. And, if the film elements of the visual effects are recomposited rather than recreated digitally, they can be seen in true HD in their original form.
If they could indeed do that, it would negate the need to change any FX in the first place, which would for most people negate the need for the "original" episodes to be included alongside the "remastered" episodes.

EDIT: Harvey, you get points for calling Star Trek by its proper name and not "Tee-Oh-Es."
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Last edited by Hober Mallow; December 10 2009 at 09:58 PM.
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Old December 10 2009, 10:01 PM   #501
Harvey
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
The video masters were almost certainly encoded with timecode which links each frame of the master to the exact frame taken from the original negative. It's a relatively simple process, once the original negative has been re-scanned in HD, to use this timecode to exactly recreate the SD edit in HD.
Yes, but it's still a recreation of the original and a complete waste of time. The purists who want the originals preserved and included won't be getting it, and those of us who don't care wouldn't watch it anyway, so it would be a waste of time.
I have no idea what you're getting on about here. The only difference between the new version and the original would be an increase in picture quality. That's not a waste of time--that's the whole point!

Speaking of the "jarring" transition between HD video and SD visual effects, the visual effects will in the very least be upconverted. Watching the episodes wouldn't be outside of the experience of the new Babylon 5 transfers, which is problematic, but still quite watchable. And, if the film elements of the visual effects are recomposited rather than recreated digitally, they can be seen in true HD in their original form.
If they could indeed do that, it would negate the need to change any FX in the first place, which would for most people negate the need for the "original" episodes to be included alongside the "remastered" episodes.
Exactly my point. And they may very well do that, since it would be cheaper than creating new CGI effects.

As for calling Star Trek by its name, it's the academic in me. I'd never get away with "TOS" in a research paper of any sort.
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Old December 10 2009, 11:41 PM   #502
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Harvey, you're not getting it.

The show was shot on film, as was most* of the model footage I believe. But all of the post and FX work was done in video. ALL of the visual post production would have to be redone.
  • So if someone fires a hand phaser, the phaser effect will have to be created newly from scratch.
  • Transporter effects.
  • Viewscreens, or any display readout.
  • Holodeck effects.
  • All of the post effects for model shots, even a simple flybye would require new engine glows.
  • Any shot with a window that didn't feature the static star backdrop, even simple warp streaks.
All of this has to be created again, and that would in no way be the original show anymore.
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Old December 11 2009, 12:28 AM   #503
Harvey
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

I thought all of those elements were film elements, and that they were only composited on video. If they were only created on NTSC video, then you're right, they can't simply be recomposited into HD. Send me in the direction of a link or reference book that settles the matter, if you have one. I'm curious to read more on the subject.

EDIT: http://www.dvdtown.com/messageboard/topic/8274/3/0

I've been falling back on this post as a source, which states, among other points, that the transporter effect was shot on film and just a video composite, as I've been saying.
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Old December 11 2009, 02:10 AM   #504
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Prologic9 wrote: View Post
All of this has to be created again, and that would in no way be the original show anymore.
Well yes, that's self-evident. It was designed to be seen on a small 525 line CRT television in very much standard definition.

Any attempts to make it available in HD will mean it is no longer the "original" version. However, does this actually matter? Are you damaging the original creative intent by rescanning it all in high definition, and very probably altering the visual effects?

I would argue that the important thing is that the story and the creative intent remains the same. As long as the episodes are edited in the same way, and have effects which help to tell that story, it doesn't matter if someone has had to redraw a 1989 phaser blast on a computer in 2009.

Does it make it a "different" show? Technically, yes, but to all intents and purposes, of course not.
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Old December 11 2009, 02:51 AM   #505
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Any attempts to make it available in HD will mean it is no longer the "original" version. However, does this actually matter? Are you damaging the original creative intent by rescanning it all in high definition, and very probably altering the visual effects?
Of course it matters, in as far as we're talking about preserving the history of the show in its original form.

I'm all for creating expansive new visual FX shots, as was done for TOS. But redoing them to match the originals just so some can pretend to have the existing show in HD is stupid.

---

Harvey, probably the only decent look into TNG's effects work is Cinefex #37;

http://www.cinefex.com/backissues/issue37.html

If I can find an 'online' version I'll point to it.
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Old December 11 2009, 02:52 AM   #506
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Prologic9 wrote: View Post
All of this has to be created again, and that would in no way be the original show anymore.
Well yes, that's self-evident. It was designed to be seen on a small 525 line CRT television in very much standard definition.

Any attempts to make it available in HD will mean it is no longer the "original" version. However, does this actually matter? Are you damaging the original creative intent by rescanning it all in high definition, and very probably altering the visual effects?

I would argue that the important thing is that the story and the creative intent remains the same. As long as the episodes are edited in the same way, and have effects which help to tell that story, it doesn't matter if someone has had to redraw a 1989 phaser blast on a computer in 2009.

Does it make it a "different" show? Technically, yes, but to all intents and purposes, of course not.
Doesn't matter. The original episode, completely unaltered needs to remain available in the future.

I have no problem with newly created SFX, hell, I've wanted to see (proper, good) new SFX for some shows, like TOS myself for some time now.

However, the originals need to remain intact and available, for so many, many reasons. Thus the original SD shows should simply be on those discs as well.
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Old December 11 2009, 02:58 AM   #507
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Okay, what I'm not getting here is why they simply can't include both the original, unenhanced, SD originals and the new, spiffy, HD, CGI-enhanced TNG-R versions and be done with it.

If you're going to do a release on DVD that includes both a new version and an old, you either have to go the 'seamless branching' route or you have to add alot of extra discs because of capacity issues.

But as has already been pointed out, a Blu-ray disc has plenty of capcity to hold 4 or 5 HD remastered enhanced episodes, the original versions of those same episodes in SD, and any extras they want to include, all on the same disc.

All Paramount has to do to placate those purists who want the originals is to toss the exact same versions as used on the DVD's onto the Blu-ray discs. No new editing, no new transfers, no new visual effects, not even extra discs. There is no economic disincentive what-so-ever to Paramount to include them.
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Old December 11 2009, 03:18 AM   #508
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

3D Master wrote: View Post
However, the originals need to remain intact and available, for so many, many reasons. Thus the original SD shows should simply be on those discs as well.
They are available, intact, on DVD, on a thousand DVD Rips, and torrented around the world. They aren't going anywhere. They've had an official digital release, which in this day and age makes them immortal. I don't see what more you require. It's not as if all existing DVDs are wiped when the (hypothetical) Blu-ray release hits the shops.
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Old December 11 2009, 04:32 AM   #509
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

To be fair, the existing DVDs might be replaced with remastered DVDs in stores, just as Paramount did with the Star Trek remastered DVDs. Of course, if those discs (and I'm not sure on this count) included the same seamless branching episodes as the Blu-Ray release did, then fine. There's the originals and the new versions, both in glorious SD. And that's good enough for me. I'm not looking to buy Blu-Rays for old SD content.

Now, if Star Trek the Next Generation goes the same route as its predecessor on Blu-Ray and creates new CGI effects, just be sure to include both the original effects (upconverted) and the new effects (true HD) via seamless branching. And that's enough for me.

On the other hand, if they choose to recomposite the effects from the film elements, and are sometimes forced to recreate the odd effect that was created on video, it's not a big deal to me. If they're re-creating and odd effect here or there to look identical, only in HD, I don't mind or care. The Star Trek remastered project had a different approach, creating new visual effects, which is why the preservation of both old and new effects on that project was the way to go.

And thanks for the link to that magazine, Prologic9. If you ever find it online, send a copy my way. I'd rather note shell out the 4.50 + shipping for a photocopied back issue.
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Old December 11 2009, 04:44 AM   #510
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
They are available, intact, on DVD, on a thousand DVD Rips, and torrented around the world. They aren't going anywhere. They've had an official digital release, which in this day and age makes them immortal. I don't see what more you require. It's not as if all existing DVDs are wiped when the (hypothetical) Blu-ray release hits the shops.
DVD will eventually become obsolete, just as VHS has. My argument is that the original episodes needs to be available in whatever the -current- format of choice is, regardless of what previous formats they are available in.

Again, I don't understand where the big point of contention is here. We've already established that Paramount could take the original, standard definition episodes and toss them onto the Blu-ray discs without in any way increasing their costs or affecting the enhanced HD releases. So why not do it?
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