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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old December 8 2009, 07:31 PM   #466
3D Master
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Prologic9 wrote: View Post
Fortunately the originals are available, you can go out and get them right now as a matter of fact.
The problem is not whether they are available NOW, it's whether they continue to be available in the decades, if not centuries, to come.

I wouldn't at all expect a bluray release to branch between the two the way TOS-R does. The situations are entirely different as TNG's VFX shots will always remain SD, and there's no way to change that.

This isn't just the model work, you're talking about any scene with the view screen, transporter shot, hand phaser shots, Holodecks, window shots, hundreds of shots they produced over the years. Trying to mix all that in with newly restored and edited scenes in HD is neither practical nor does it preserve the 'original' episodes, as the discrepancy between the material would be massive.
And it DOES NOT MATTER how it's done, or how bad it looks; even if they have to keep the entire SD resolution episodes right next to the new HD ones. The originals need to be preserved, it's that simple.
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Old December 8 2009, 09:48 PM   #467
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

^ What he said.

My point was that the original versions need to be preserved on Blu-ray and whatever medium they later decide to re-release Trek on. Saying "they're available now" is insufficient. They're available on VHS too. But how long will it be before no one has a VHS player in their homes anymore? And how long has it been since Paramount actually manufactured new VHS copies of the episodes?

Having had the originals available at one time in an obsolete format is insufficient. They need to be available in a format that is currently being sold and that most people are able to utilize.
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Old December 8 2009, 11:31 PM   #468
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

JJohnson wrote: View Post
if TNG were filmed on 35 mm, does that mean there's more visual information out to the sides which would enable the crew to re-crop it to 1.78:1 or some other widescreen, without cropping the top/bottom?
Not significantly. The shooting ratio was ~1.37:1, barely wider than the 1.33:1 (4:3) it was transmitted as. If you wanted widescreen, you'd still lose ~23% of the picture to do it, which I wouldn't consider worth it, since TNG was framed for 4:3, not 16:9. As you can see in the following link - http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/in...ent_vs_tng.htm - where they not only needed to crop the small amount of TNG stock footage used, but also stretched it.
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Old December 9 2009, 04:17 AM   #469
Prologic9
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

3D Master wrote: View Post
Prologic9 wrote: View Post
Fortunately the originals are available, you can go out and get them right now as a matter of fact.
The problem is not whether they are available NOW, it's whether they continue to be available in the decades, if not centuries, to come.

I wouldn't at all expect a bluray release to branch between the two the way TOS-R does. The situations are entirely different as TNG's VFX shots will always remain SD, and there's no way to change that.

This isn't just the model work, you're talking about any scene with the view screen, transporter shot, hand phaser shots, Holodecks, window shots, hundreds of shots they produced over the years. Trying to mix all that in with newly restored and edited scenes in HD is neither practical nor does it preserve the 'original' episodes, as the discrepancy between the material would be massive.
And it DOES NOT MATTER how it's done, or how bad it looks; even if they have to keep the entire SD resolution episodes right next to the new HD ones. The originals need to be preserved, it's that simple.
I'm not sure where you're coming from here.

If you're trying to make some larger point about preserving the original episodes for historical purposes, then that simply has no bearing on the conversation at hand. I doubt CBS/Paramount are going to burn the originals any time soon, at any rate.

But I'm assuming you were talking about a theoretical "TNG-Remastered" release on Blu-ray. IF this ever happens, the original episodes WILL NOT BE INCLUDED. Nor is there any moral argument that says they should be.
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Old December 9 2009, 04:54 AM   #470
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Prologic9 wrote: View Post
But I'm assuming you were talking about a theoretical "TNG-Remastered" release on Blu-ray. IF this ever happens, the original episodes WILL NOT BE INCLUDED.
Says who? The fact that you put "WILL NOT BE INCLUDED" in all caps does not make it any more of a fact. You don't know what would or would not be included anymore than I do. Blu-ray certainly has enough capacity to store both the original and upgraded episodes on the same discs.
Prologic9 wrote: View Post
Nor is there any moral argument that says they should be.
Well, no, we're talking about a home video release of a TV show here. So I don't think there's any moral component. But from an artistic standpoint, I believe that the originals should continue to be made available. And by "made available" I don't mean in a format that you can find on eBay if you dig around enough. I mean that they should continue to be released in the current format of the day alongside whatever "enhanced" editions are released.
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Old December 9 2009, 05:00 AM   #471
bullethead
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
Prologic9 wrote: View Post
But I'm assuming you were talking about a theoretical "TNG-Remastered" release on Blu-ray. IF this ever happens, the original episodes WILL NOT BE INCLUDED.
Says who? The fact that you put "WILL NOT BE INCLUDED" in all caps does not make it any more of a fact. You don't know what would or would not be included anymore than I do. Blu-ray certainly has enough capacity to store both the original and upgraded episodes on the same discs.
Because there is little to no economic incentive for Paramount to include the original episodes with their subpar (for Blu-ray) effects in the remastered sets. At most they'll have it up where you can see the old and new effects side by side, but even that's a stretch.
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Old December 9 2009, 05:03 AM   #472
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

^ How much would it cost Paramount to include the originals, if they just put them at standard definition and didn't even bother with upconverting? Virtually nothing. And there are many "purists" out there who would want the originals in their Blu-ray collections. So I think it could have economic value to Paramount.
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Old December 9 2009, 12:49 PM   #473
3D Master
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Prologic9 wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
Prologic9 wrote: View Post
Fortunately the originals are available, you can go out and get them right now as a matter of fact.
The problem is not whether they are available NOW, it's whether they continue to be available in the decades, if not centuries, to come.

I wouldn't at all expect a bluray release to branch between the two the way TOS-R does. The situations are entirely different as TNG's VFX shots will always remain SD, and there's no way to change that.

This isn't just the model work, you're talking about any scene with the view screen, transporter shot, hand phaser shots, Holodecks, window shots, hundreds of shots they produced over the years. Trying to mix all that in with newly restored and edited scenes in HD is neither practical nor does it preserve the 'original' episodes, as the discrepancy between the material would be massive.
And it DOES NOT MATTER how it's done, or how bad it looks; even if they have to keep the entire SD resolution episodes right next to the new HD ones. The originals need to be preserved, it's that simple.
I'm not sure where you're coming from here.

If you're trying to make some larger point about preserving the original episodes for historical purposes, then that simply has no bearing on the conversation at hand. I doubt CBS/Paramount are going to burn the originals any time soon, at any rate.
It DOES have a bearing on the conversation at hand. And whether they burn them or not, doesn't matter. What matters is that they continue to be available. Whether or not they exist somewhere doesn't matter, whether they can be watched can. Imagine if they make CGI-enhanced version of the Mona Lisa, and the museum that owns it stuffs the real one down in the basement somewhere.

But I'm assuming you were talking about a theoretical "TNG-Remastered" release on Blu-ray. IF this ever happens, the original episodes WILL NOT BE INCLUDED. Nor is there any moral argument that says they should be.
They BETTER be. And there IS a moral argument that says they should be, I just made it.

bullethead wrote: View Post
Because there is little to no economic incentive for Paramount to include the original episodes with their subpar (for Blu-ray) effects in the remastered sets. At most they'll have it up where you can see the old and new effects side by side, but even that's a stretch.
Right, and economics is the only thing that matters anywhere.

Well, if that's the case, we should MAKE SURE there is an economic incentive, aka: if they're not on there, we won't buy them.
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Old December 9 2009, 01:29 PM   #474
JJohnson
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

SoM wrote: View Post
JJohnson wrote: View Post
if TNG were filmed on 35 mm, does that mean there's more visual information out to the sides which would enable the crew to re-crop it to 1.78:1 or some other widescreen, without cropping the top/bottom?
Not significantly. The shooting ratio was ~1.37:1, barely wider than the 1.33:1 (4:3) it was transmitted as. If you wanted widescreen, you'd still lose ~23% of the picture to do it, which I wouldn't consider worth it, since TNG was framed for 4:3, not 16:9. As you can see in the following link - http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/in...ent_vs_tng.htm - where they not only needed to crop the small amount of TNG stock footage used, but also stretched it.
Very good article with good information in it. I would hope there would be no distortion of the frame in an eventual remastering; however, I would like to see some additional information left/right of the original frame included, if for anything than an overall improvement of the content over the original - if they remaster the entire usable frame, why not just show it off? I'd be fine with a 1.37:1 frame, so long as it doesn't include any materials we weren't supposed to see (boom mikes, etc.).

James
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Old December 9 2009, 01:41 PM   #475
FalTorPan
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Re: CG ENT-D model

Dennis wrote: View Post
FalTorPan wrote: View Post
I think the windows are an example of where both physical miniatures and CGI models failed to sell the reality of the Enterprise-D. "Frosted white rectangles" don't look like windows to me.
Indeed - just as on the original TOS model of the Enterprise, they simply look like little featureless lights and not a thing like windows.

The windows on the JJPrise look like windows.
We reach.

By the way, Polaris is awesome. I'm both amazed and envious. You must write about your experiences one day!
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Old December 9 2009, 03:02 PM   #476
JJohnson
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Re: CG ENT-D model

FalTorPan wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
FalTorPan wrote: View Post
I think the windows are an example of where both physical miniatures and CGI models failed to sell the reality of the Enterprise-D. "Frosted white rectangles" don't look like windows to me.
Indeed - just as on the original TOS model of the Enterprise, they simply look like little featureless lights and not a thing like windows.

The windows on the JJPrise look like windows.
We reach.

By the way, Polaris is awesome. I'm both amazed and envious. You must write about your experiences one day!
If/when the TNG-R series becomes a reality, I would enjoy at least 1 beauty pass of the Enterprise D wherein those 'white rectangles' have people and rooms in them, moving around - not just in the observation lounge (where there always seems to be someone walking around....). Bonus if there are at least 2 versions of the beauty pass with different rooms lit up and different people walking around.
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Old December 9 2009, 03:24 PM   #477
RAMA
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

SoM wrote: View Post
JJohnson wrote: View Post
if TNG were filmed on 35 mm, does that mean there's more visual information out to the sides which would enable the crew to re-crop it to 1.78:1 or some other widescreen, without cropping the top/bottom?
Not significantly. The shooting ratio was ~1.37:1, barely wider than the 1.33:1 (4:3) it was transmitted as. If you wanted widescreen, you'd still lose ~23% of the picture to do it, which I wouldn't consider worth it, since TNG was framed for 4:3, not 16:9. As you can see in the following link - http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/in...ent_vs_tng.htm - where they not only needed to crop the small amount of TNG stock footage used, but also stretched it.

I don't mind a little stretching sometimes. There has to be a trade-off for the overall benefit. Not only is there a little more picture in the TATV frame, but the stretch is barely noticeable.

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Old December 9 2009, 04:06 PM   #478
bullethead
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
^ How much would it cost Paramount to include the originals, if they just put them at standard definition and didn't even bother with upconverting? Virtually nothing. And there are many "purists" out there who would want the originals in their Blu-ray collections. So I think it could have economic value to Paramount.
They would probably have to include more discs, and since I don't know how much it costs to make a Blu-Ray disc/set, I can't comment on whether that would be the major stumbling block. However, with Blu-Ray sales not looking good all round, I doubt they'd do something like that if it would cut into their profit margins.
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Old December 9 2009, 06:09 PM   #479
Prologic9
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

3D Master wrote: View Post
It DOES have a bearing on the conversation at hand. And whether they burn them or not, doesn't matter. What matters is that they continue to be available. Whether or not they exist somewhere doesn't matter, whether they can be watched can. Imagine if they make CGI-enhanced version of the Mona Lisa, and the museum that owns it stuffs the real one down in the basement somewhere.
Really, that's the best argument you could make? Comparing digital files that can exist near infinitely to a one off painting in a basement?

Anyways, no one has a natural right to be able to buy a TV show-- or anything else for that matter. Hell, retailers put out "limited editions" all the time, DVDs or otherwise. It's hardly uncommon, certainly not to Star Trek.

3D Master wrote: View Post
Right, and economics is the only thing that matters anywhere.

Well, if that's the case, we should MAKE SURE there is an economic incentive, aka: if they're not on there, we won't buy them.
Yes, economics is the only thing that matters. That's how I know the originals won't be included, it's bad business. Unlike TOS-R, they'd be duplicating content currently available that they're already trying to sell you. They'd be going out of their way to provide material that doesn't meet the standards of the Bluray format (it wont sell the release). And they'd be doing it at an unreasonable expense to themselves and consumers, as it would take 2-3 extra discs per season to be able to include them.
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Old December 9 2009, 07:15 PM   #480
MvRojo
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Re: Star Trek TNG Remastered?

Prologic9 wrote: View Post
Yes, economics is the only thing that matters. That's how I know the originals won't be included, it's bad business. Unlike TOS-R, they'd be duplicating content currently available that they're already trying to sell you. They'd be going out of their way to provide material that doesn't meet the standards of the Bluray format (it wont sell the release). And they'd be doing it at an unreasonable expense to themselves and consumers, as it would take 2-3 extra discs per season to be able to include them.
They already put standard-definition materials on their BD releases. All the previous special features from the DVDs are on the Trek BD releases, and they're still in standard def, which according to you, shouldn't have happened since "they'd be duplicating content currently available that they're already trying to sell you". Most studios are doing the same thing.

Hell, even the Ultimate Edition Harry Potter films on BD include a plain old DVD of special features since they just ported pretty much the same disc over from the previous release. And Disney BDs include a full DVD of the film on top of the BD and digital copies.

Don't act like you're an expert on the home video market or BDs when you make obviously incorrect statements.
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