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Old November 22 2009, 08:45 PM   #31
Kegg
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

I really enjoyed the Augment arc - particularly because of Brent Spiner, who was fantastic in it - but yeah, the Augments themselves were rather weakly acted and interchangeable pretty people.
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Old November 23 2009, 12:43 AM   #32
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

Sabataage wrote: View Post
I think hardcore Trekkers (who hated XI)...
Should go Fuck themselves. THEY didn't make Star Trek the success it was and I'll doubt they'll be onboard for Star Trek 2, no matter how much unnecessary asskissing TPTB do. Abrams and the rest of us who love this film should leave those retards behind with their DVD's of TOS.
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Old November 23 2009, 12:50 AM   #33
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

Hardcore Trekkers and those who didn't like Trek XI aren't mutually exclusive.
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Old November 23 2009, 02:08 AM   #34
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

This is why they should have just done a complete reboot for the movie instead of what they did. I'm of the opinion that Star Trek's history doesn't need to follow our history (it is fiction after all and is entertainment), though TPTB always seem to try and make events 'fit' into Trek's timeline. I didn't read the Eugenics War novels and I think the idea of that war being fought 'in secret' is stupid. The war happened, 30+ million were killed and it was a pivotal moment in human history that culminated in the banning of genetic engineering. How a war that kills that many people could be kept secret is absurd and silly.

Khan shouldn't be in the next movie, it would be better to do something else, preferably something new instead of remaking an old movie.
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Old November 28 2009, 12:40 AM   #35
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

I throw my hat in with the 'no Khan in Nuverse' clan.

Been there, done that, we don't need to see that character again at all. Tell his story in Novels and/or comics.

TO: Kurtzman/Orci PLEASE don't waste screen time rehashing OU stories!!! (<going in sig! feel free to duplicate!)

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Abrams can't mess with Khan too much, since his reboot doesn't "start" until the destruction of the Kelvin. Anything before that should be the same as in the prime timeline, Khan included.
I may be off topic but I just had to say, IMO, this bit about the new timeline being the same as up to the Kelvin violates my presumed spirit the new PTB intended for the Nuverse.

I believe a major point being made in Parallels, (and one I want to hope the writers perceived as I did) is that all AU's are just that; alternate. They were all started at the same time as the PT and grew their separate ways, which may be eerily the same or grossly different. Every person or thing occurs in every Universe but events can play out entirely different in each one.

Odo lived in one but died in another. The Enterprise was the O'l Girl in TOS, she is the Nu' Girl in the Nu.

A Khan remake would, even if successful & IMO, only serve to indicate they had nothing else of value to add to their baby, Star Trek was only a 'one hit wonder'.
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Old November 30 2009, 05:48 AM   #36
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

Aren't these things going to always be issues for Star Trek though? If the franchise continues for 40-50 years more, people will wonder when the Vulcans will show up in 2063 and where Zephram Cochrane is. The events in ENT are relatively right around the corner, simply the next century, that's not that far away. Heck, how are all those things from TOS or Trek XI supposed to happen in the next 250 years or so?

If they do Khan, they can not give out the 1990s date because mainstream audiences will think "WTF?". They need to ignore the date, retcon Khan's backstory or simply not do a Khan story at all.

But if I remember TWOK retconned Khan and his people. Khan sure didn't look like a Sikh Indian in TWOK as he did in "Space Seed", and his followers went from dark haired to becoming all blonde haired Anglo looking people. How did that happen?
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Old November 30 2009, 08:10 AM   #37
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

Firstly, I am glad to see there's others who think that it's a bad thing to rehash Kahn for the sequel to Star Trek. I'm against it, mainly because the vibe I am getting is that "This is a new timeline, now we can do Kahn MY way, hahaha!" Considering how new this timeline is, and the current setting (and when they net Kahn in TOS), I don't see how it can work out for the sake of argument that it can be done because its a new universe. Not to mention the appeal on Kahn, was that he was a challange, an opposite, to an experienced James Kirk, not someone a couple years into his carreer period, let alone command.

Secondly, I am confused they would have to change the days 'because those dates already happened' as it's fantasy/science fiction/fake/whatever term you want to use, anyone who wonders where the Vulcans are come 2063 IMO, is someone who'd need serious mental help.
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Old November 30 2009, 09:21 AM   #38
Dusty Ayres
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
A human genetic engineering program isn't cheap or easy to conceal, though. I mean, who ran it, Hugo Drax?
Pretty much someone like Hugo Drax did run it; that's the premise of the novels, since it was like James Bond skewed 360 degrees. Plus, it had been going on for a loong time.

The secret program/few Augments paradigm I just can't truck with. To be effective, there would have had to have been hundreds of millions of them. A few thousand guys with trebled strength and doubled intelligence? So what, they aren't bulletproof. How do you seize power in (what was it?) forty nations with a few thousand guys?
Again, it's all explained in the novels. They were going to launch missiles full of flesh-eating bacteria all over the globe, just like Hugo Drax was goint to launch globes full of deadly gas all over Earth in Moonraker-after the human race had died out, they would have cloned enough Augments to repopulate the world.

To be viable, Augments have to have a large presence in the population. Frankly, I think that's more interesting anyway, in that it elevates the Augies beyond supervillains.
As I said, you have to read the novel (and the spoiler I've presented.) Then you'll get what I and Mr. Cox are trying to tell you.
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Old November 30 2009, 08:03 PM   #39
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

Dusty Ayres wrote: View Post
Myasishchev wrote: View Post
A human genetic engineering program isn't cheap or easy to conceal, though. I mean, who ran it, Hugo Drax?
Pretty much someone like Hugo Drax did run it; that's the premise of the novels, since it was like James Bond skewed 360 degrees. Plus, it had been going on for a loong time.

The secret program/few Augments paradigm I just can't truck with. To be effective, there would have had to have been hundreds of millions of them. A few thousand guys with trebled strength and doubled intelligence? So what, they aren't bulletproof. How do you seize power in (what was it?) forty nations with a few thousand guys?
Again, it's all explained in the novels. They were going to launch missiles full of flesh-eating bacteria all over the globe, just like Hugo Drax was goint to launch globes full of deadly gas all over Earth in Moonraker-after the human race had died out, they would have cloned enough Augments to repopulate the world.

To be viable, Augments have to have a large presence in the population. Frankly, I think that's more interesting anyway, in that it elevates the Augies beyond supervillains.
As I said, you have to read the novel (and the spoiler I've presented.) Then you'll get what I and Mr. Cox are trying to tell you.
This negates the fact that if the war was secret nobody would even know Khan existed let alone three hundred years later. He needs to be infamous. In order for Khan to work he must have a lasting and persistent presence in history like Hitler. "Never again!"
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Old December 1 2009, 10:55 PM   #40
Dusty Ayres
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

Sabataage wrote: View Post
This negates the fact that if the war was secret nobody would even know Khan existed let alone three hundred years later. He needs to be infamous. In order for Khan to work he must have a lasting and persistent presence in history like Hitler. "Never again!"
When Khan (who was the most famous of them all) seized power in India in the early '90's, he became known for doing so; the others (Randy Morrison, Chen Tijun, Arcturus, etc.) less so since one was a typical right-wing American survivalist with a bunch of like-minded wackos in Florida, another being a group of neo-Amazons on their own island (Chen even wears body armor), and the third-mentioned one is the head of a global space cult similar to the cult that killed themselves in order to go into space by dying (the one that Nichelle Nicols's brother was a member of.) Khan simply had more resources to do what he wanted since he controlled half of India and Asia, and had even built a submarine fleet and a arsenal of missiles. The war itself is seen by historians from the future as being one, but not perceived by the people of the '90's as being a big conflict, rather just seen as part of the conflicts and events of the time, according to (Greg) Cox.
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Old December 2 2009, 01:19 AM   #41
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

Enough. We have enough Khan.

No more Khan. Don't you get it? Re-booting Trek was so that everything would be *new*.
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Old December 3 2009, 09:27 PM   #42
Myasishchev
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

Dusty Ayres wrote: View Post
Sabataage wrote: View Post
This negates the fact that if the war was secret nobody would even know Khan existed let alone three hundred years later. He needs to be infamous. In order for Khan to work he must have a lasting and persistent presence in history like Hitler. "Never again!"
When Khan (who was the most famous of them all) seized power in India in the early '90's, he became known for doing so; the others (Randy Morrison, Chen Tijun, Arcturus, etc.) less so since one was a typical right-wing American survivalist with a bunch of like-minded wackos in Florida, another being a group of neo-Amazons on their own island (Chen even wears body armor), and the third-mentioned one is the head of a global space cult similar to the cult that killed themselves in order to go into space by dying (the one that Nichelle Nicols's brother was a member of.) Khan simply had more resources to do what he wanted since he controlled half of India and Asia, and had even built a submarine fleet and a arsenal of missiles. The war itself is seen by historians from the future as being one, but not perceived by the people of the '90's as being a big conflict, rather just seen as part of the conflicts and events of the time, according to (Greg) Cox.
Out of curiosity, how do you even control half of Asia? Each part of Asia hates pretty much all the other parts.

One of these days I might read 'em, but I remain dubious about the concept. Like you said, they sound more like Assignment: Earth novels than Star Trek ones, with crazy pseudo-Bond tropes that have little place in Trek outside of a holodeck episode featuring Julian Bashir. Dr. Noah: Augment?

It doesn't instill much confidence in me that the global danger plot of Moonraker is recapitulated. I mean, I actually loved the movie, but it's the high camp approach to James Bond, which works well there, but I suspect would work horribly in the context of Khan (maybe ironically, since high camp was a staple of TOS). Edit: Mem Beta says that Khan had an ozone laser. Alright. I guess.

Edit: also, I have some moral qualms with the tack apparently taken in the novels. Correct me if I am wrong.

The first I call the "Hitler is an alien" effect. Enterprise had a version of this, for example--a relatively innocuous one, but many other works have premised their fiction with aliens either helping Nazi Germany or actually forming the upper echelons of the Nazi Party itself. These stories can be fun, but at their core is the morally offensive concept that the crimes of Nazi Germany were excused because of alien influence, or that humans aren't capable of such evil without outside assistance. At the least, the underlying idea that "wouldn't it be cool if aliens helped kill Jews and Russians?" is a tad disrespectful to Germany's victims. I have kind of the same problem with evil Augments orchestrating real life crimes and tragedies. Yeah, it's fun, but it's still a tad disrespectful. Humanity is perfectly capable of fucking up its own world. Going by Mem Beta here--is southwestern Sudan riven by racial strife wearing the cloak of dangerous religious fundamentalism? Hell, no! Khan did it.

Secondly, and this is something Cox inherited from Space Seed, is the "superior ability breeds superior ambition" conceit, which automatically puts the Augments in the category of villains, or at least megalomaniacs, instead of just people. I've never understood Star Trek's anathema to genetic engineering. In a few years, "Space Seed" will look even more chauvinistic than "Turnabout Intruder." This approach to the Eugenics War isn't very IDIC. Besides, if superior ability breeds superior ambition, why haven't the Vulcans exterminated us by the 24th century? They've had 300 years.
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Old December 25 2009, 07:36 PM   #43
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

Khan was probably the greatest villain in all of Trek...and people are bitching about him (possibly) coming back?

*shrugs*

I guess I'll never understand....
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Old December 25 2009, 07:52 PM   #44
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

Penhall99 wrote: View Post
Khan was probably the greatest villain in all of Trek...and people are bitching about him (possibly) coming back?

*shrugs*

I guess I'll never understand....
I happen to be one of the people who don't find Khan to be a particularly interesting, complex or compelling villain. He was one of the several more or less memorable villains from TOS, he was in one solid episode, and then, yeah, he happened to be the villain in an excellent Trek movie. But while I like the movie, I don't think that he was the main reason why the movie was good. He was a convincing adversary to Kirk, but I don't see what else is there to explore about his personality or why I should find it interesting. And I certainly don't see what new and challenging things could be done by rehashing his story.

Unless they do something really radical, like making him Kirk's ally this time, but I'm not sure how that would work. Otherwise, if it is just a rehash of the old story, what is the point?
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Old December 25 2009, 08:39 PM   #45
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Re: One bigass ret-Khan they would need to do...

1. They should not do Khan again. Or any other TOS story line. this is a chance to take ST in new directions and it shouldn't be squandered re-making the stories we've already seen.

2. The history of the ST universe isn't the history we live in. We live in a world where the events of ST have taken place on TV and movie screens. ST takes place in a world where that stuff actually happened in real life in the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th centuries. In their history the Eugenics Wars DID happen, but that does not need to mean it did in ours. And apparaently it didn't.
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