Uniform colours- is there a system? - Page 2

Admiral Shran · November 23 2009, 07:04 AM

CoveTom wrote:

For example, when Data was moved to first officer under Captain Jellico in "Chain of Command," he switched to the red/maroon uniform. But when he was placed in command of the Excalibur in "Redemption," he stays in gold.

Jellico is on record in the episode as "liking a certain formality on the bridge." Therefore, I always thought that Data should have switched to the red uniform in "Redemption." It seems to be the "formal," or correct, thing to do.

iguana_tonante · November 23 2009, 11:42 AM

USS Excelsior wrote:

They could have had additional colours to be more specific, like a different colour for Medical and Operations and Security.

They did something similar during the TOS movies era. Section colours were less visible than in other time periods (just the turtleneck undershirts and epaulets instead of the various parts of the outer tunic), but they abandoned it later.

USS Excelsior wrote:

Not seen on-screen are additional colours like green for Starfleet Marines, and white for Starfleet Intelligence.

Although I like the idea, these are mere supposition. Where they suggested from some non-canonical source? (books, comics...)

Timo · November 23 2009, 12:02 PM

There were special colors for such things in the TOS movies, which used a more extensive color palette overall.

But in the TV shows, we could argue that Starfleet marines wear the same colors as Starfleet sailors do - all three of them. After all, we already saw marines (whatever their name in the ST universe) in episodes like "The Siege of AR-558", and while their uniforms were distinct, their colors were the usual red and yellow (and perhaps blue as well, although that was not actually seen in any episode). Marines would have their own fighters, engineers, medics and surveyors, just like the sailor branch of the organization does, and would need all three colors.

We could also argue that Intelligence wears the same yellow as Security does. Most admirals wear red, as is fitting of people whose main job is to command. But we have also seen an admiral in yellow, Admiral Toddman in "The Die is Cast". He obviously wasn't of Engineering persuasion, and he was handling a delicate Intelligence matter (the OO/Tal'Shiar strike against the Founder hideout world) that shouldn't be related to Security much.

No doubt there are also blueshirt admirals, but there are precious few plotlines where the Chief of Starfleet Medical, Admiral (Rear, Lower Half) Probe, Ann L. (MD/Proct.) would be calling our heroes.

Timo Saloniemi

iguana_tonante · November 23 2009, 04:15 PM

Timo wrote:

But in the TV shows, we could argue that Starfleet marines wear the same colors as Starfleet sailors do - all three of them. After all, we already saw marines (whatever their name in the ST universe) in episodes like "The Siege of AR-558", and while their uniforms were distinct, their colors were the usual red and yellow (and perhaps blue as well, although that was not actually seen in any episode). Marines would have their own fighters, engineers, medics and surveyors, just like the sailor branch of the organization does, and would need all three colors.

I agree. While I like the idea of Starfleet Marines (or whatever they are called), I don't think there is enough support in canon for such a thing. Doesn't mean I didn't used them heavily in my own role playing games or fan fictions, for example.

Timo wrote:

We could also argue that Intelligence wears the same yellow as Security does. Most admirals wear red, as is fitting of people whose main job is to command. But we have also seen an admiral in yellow, Admiral Toddman in "The Die is Cast". He obviously wasn't of Engineering persuasion, and he was handling a delicate Intelligence matter (the OO/Tal'Shiar strike against the Founder hideout world) that shouldn't be related to Security much.

Very good point.

Timo wrote:

No doubt there are also blueshirt admirals, but there are precious few plotlines where the Chief of Starfleet Medical, Admiral (Rear, Lower Half) Probe, Ann L. (MD/Proct.) would be calling our heroes.

Bloody brilliant.

CoveTom · November 24 2009, 08:52 PM

Some clarification on Data's uniform colors:

The switching of red and yellow from their TOS roles was already planned from the beginning.

The problem was that Data tested bad in blue. He was originally supposed to be called the science officer, just like Spock. However, when they put him in the blue medical/sciences uniform, they didn't think it worked well with his android makeup and contact lenses. So they created a new position, operations officer, that allowed him to wear the yellow ship operations uniforms. Red was never really a consideration for him.

It's too bad, though. Personally, I think his makeup and contacts look horrible with the yellow and would have looked ten times better in either red or blue. As I recall, there were even some Photoshopped images posted around here a while back showing him in the different colors.

Snaploud · November 25 2009, 09:50 AM

I think Data should have transitioned to red sometime during the show (part of his progression to take over the first officer position--which really should have happened by the series end). It was a huge WTF moment when Deanna Troi was promoted above Data in Thine Own Self.

Therin of Andor · November 25 2009, 10:48 AM

CoveTom wrote:

The switching of red and yellow from their TOS roles was already planned from the beginning.

The switch was because the TOS movies' use of wine red for all Starfleet officers' jackets, viewers had begun to associate wine with Admiral Kirk, Captain Spock and command.

Patrick Stewart tested better in wine (colour-shifted from TOS red) than mustard. It was also felt that using mustard for security diluted the old doomed "redshirt" jokes. The blue of science was colour-shifted to teal to avoid problems with bluescreen.

iguana_tonante wrote:

They did something similar during the TOS movies era. Section colours were less visible than in other time periods (just the turtleneck undershirts and epaulets instead of the various parts of the outer tunic), but they abandoned it later.

TMP increased from three (TOS) to six division colours:
White: command, Science: orange; Ship's Services/Helm: yellow; Engineering: red; Medical: mint green; Security: grey. The uniform colours were officers' personal choice of grey or beige.

ST II-VI, plus "Generations" prologue:
White: command, Science/Ship's Services: grey; Engineering/Helm: yellow; Medical: mint green; Security: black; Cadet: red. In the background, several other collar/cuff colours could be seen. The uniform jacket colour was wine.

iguana_tonante · November 25 2009, 03:00 PM

Therin of Andor wrote:

iguana_tonante wrote:

They did something similar during the TOS movies era. Section colours were less visible than in other time periods (just the turtleneck undershirts and epaulets instead of the various parts of the outer tunic), but they abandoned it later.

TMP increased from three (TOS) to six division colours:
White: command, Science: orange; Ship's Services/Helm: yellow; Engineering: red; Medical: mint green; Security: grey. The uniform colours were officers' personal choice of grey or beige.

ST II-VI, plus "Generations" prologue:
White: command, Science/Ship's Services: grey; Engineering/Helm: yellow; Medical: mint green; Security: black; Cadet: red. In the background, several other collar/cuff colours could be seen. The uniform jacket colour was wine.

Thank you, I was too lazy to check.

middyseafort · November 25 2009, 03:37 PM

Therin of Andor wrote:

The switch was because the TOS movies' use of wine red for all Starfleet officers' jackets, viewers had begun to associate wine with Admiral Kirk, Captain Spock and command.

Patrick Stewart tested better in wine (colour-shifted from TOS red) than mustard. It was also felt that using mustard for security diluted the old doomed "redshirt" jokes. The blue of science was colour-shifted to teal to avoid problems with bluescreen.

Moreover, Thesis used a darker color-value for the TNG uniforms. And the teal would continually be messed with throughout the life of the series, as Crusher's uniform color isn't very consistent from season to season.

TMP increased from three (TOS) to six division colours:
White: command, Science: orange; Ship's Services/Helm: yellow; Engineering: red; Medical: mint green; Security: grey. The uniform colours were officers' personal choice of grey or beige.

The uniform colors had a specific meaning as well per the Sackett book (see the interview with Bob Fletcher).

Blue-grey: command
Beige: bridge officers
Brown: Non-bridge personnel
White: Techs
Loden-green (looks dark gray): Planetary personnel

Of course, Ilia should've been in beige like Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov. But then again costuming is often dictated by what looks good on the actor/actress. Perhaps, and this is speculation on my part, they wanted Persis Khambata to stand out from the rest of the bridge rats since she had a prominent feature role in the film.

ST II-VI, plus "Generations" prologue:
White: command, Science/Ship's Services: grey; Engineering/Helm: yellow; Medical: mint green; Security: black; Cadet: red. In the background, several other collar/cuff colours could be seen. The uniform jacket colour was wine.

Black was the color for the enlisted personnel--as worn on their jumpers. Red was for both officer-cadet and enlisted-traniee. There was also a complex system for the shoulder and arm bands to further dilenate department and role--seen in TVH.

Security was a Windsor green per Fletcher's notes.

Those notes have been used to create this TWOK division chart.

Admiral Shran · November 26 2009, 03:24 AM

Snaploud wrote:

It was a huge WTF moment when Deanna Troi was promoted above Data in Thine Own Self.

God bless you. I was starting to think I was the one who thought that.

Mr. Laser Beam · November 26 2009, 03:27 AM

iguana_tonante wrote:

Timo wrote:

But in the TV shows, we could argue that Starfleet marines wear the same colors as Starfleet sailors do - all three of them. After all, we already saw marines (whatever their name in the ST universe) in episodes like "The Siege of AR-558", and while their uniforms were distinct, their colors were the usual red and yellow (and perhaps blue as well, although that was not actually seen in any episode). Marines would have their own fighters, engineers, medics and surveyors, just like the sailor branch of the organization does, and would need all three colors.

I agree. While I like the idea of Starfleet Marines (or whatever they are called), I don't think there is enough support in canon for such a thing. Doesn't mean I didn't used them heavily in my own role playing games or fan fictions, for example.

I hope ST XII introduces Marines. I've always wondered what they would have been like in TOS' time. I think they should wear the standard TOS style uniform, but in BLACK.

(meaning, a black uniform shirt as opposed to a red, gold or blue one)

Snaploud · November 26 2009, 06:08 AM

Admiral Shran wrote:

Snaploud wrote:

It was a huge WTF moment when Deanna Troi was promoted above Data in Thine Own Self.

God bless you. I was starting to think I was the one who thought that.

We're apparently not alone:

On Troi's promotion, Taylor remarked, "I thought it was really strong, although we have taken some criticism from people who said, 'How could you promote her over Data and Geordi?' But it would not have been a very interesting story to see Geordi or Data getting their rank. The obstacles she had to overcome were formidable and where you get interesting drama is out of conflict" (Captains' Logs: The Unauthorized Complete Trek Voyages)

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Thin..._%28episode%29

iguana_tonante · November 26 2009, 06:15 AM

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

I hope ST XII introduces Marines. I've always wondered what they would have been like in TOS' time. I think they should wear the standard TOS style uniform, but in BLACK.

(meaning, a black uniform shirt as opposed to a red, gold or blue one)

Marine should be in olive green, not darker. That's for, wait for it, Black Ops.

Red Ranger · November 26 2009, 06:26 AM

Admiral Shran wrote:

Holdfast wrote:

^ What he said.

It sounds like you're fairly new to Star Trek; if you watch the original series at some point as well as TNG, you'll note the command and engineering colours are swapped round between the two series. Rumour has it that the reason is that Data's makeup tested better with yellow than red, so they switched the colours around. Not sure if that's true or just something I heard once.

If that is true, I have disagree with the producers. I always thought Data looked better in the red uniform. Maybe it's just that I'm so used to seeing him in the gold that the change is nice.

Well, I also understand that in addition to Brent Spiner not "testing well" in blue because of the makeup/contacts, Patrick Stewart and Jonathan Frakes didn't test well in gold, either. So they decided to switch command to red instead. Good move.

CoveTom wrote:

Some clarification on Data's uniform colors:

The switching of red and yellow from their TOS roles was already planned from the beginning.

The problem was that Data tested bad in blue. He was originally supposed to be called the science officer, just like Spock. However, when they put him in the blue medical/sciences uniform, they didn't think it worked well with his android makeup and contact lenses. So they created a new position, operations officer, that allowed him to wear the yellow ship operations uniforms. Red was never really a consideration for him.

It's too bad, though. Personally, I think his makeup and contacts look horrible with the yellow and would have looked ten times better in either red or blue. As I recall, there were even some Photoshopped images posted around here a while back showing him in the different colors.

I also agree that Data looked better in red. The makeup and contacts went well with that color in the two eps he wore command red. I also wish he had switched to command red in Redemption, Pt. II when he commanded the Sutherland.

Red Ranger

Mr. Laser Beam · November 26 2009, 06:49 AM

iguana_tonante wrote:

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

I hope ST XII introduces Marines. I've always wondered what they would have been like in TOS' time. I think they should wear the standard TOS style uniform, but in BLACK.

(meaning, a black uniform shirt as opposed to a red, gold or blue one)

Marine should be in olive green,

Naw, that'd be too much like the gold color. Black would really stand out and look cool.

November 23 2009, 12:02 PM	#18
Timo Admiral	Re: Uniform colours- is there a system? There were special colors for such things in the TOS movies, which used a more extensive color palette overall. But in the TV shows, we could argue that Starfleet marines wear the same colors as Starfleet sailors do - all three of them. After all, we already saw marines (whatever their name in the ST universe) in episodes like "The Siege of AR-558", and while their uniforms were distinct, their colors were the usual red and yellow (and perhaps blue as well, although that was not actually seen in any episode). Marines would have their own fighters, engineers, medics and surveyors, just like the sailor branch of the organization does, and would need all three colors. We could also argue that Intelligence wears the same yellow as Security does. Most admirals wear red, as is fitting of people whose main job is to command. But we have also seen an admiral in yellow, Admiral Toddman in "The Die is Cast". He obviously wasn't of Engineering persuasion, and he was handling a delicate Intelligence matter (the OO/Tal'Shiar strike against the Founder hideout world) that shouldn't be related to Security much. No doubt there are also blueshirt admirals, but there are precious few plotlines where the Chief of Starfleet Medical, Admiral (Rear, Lower Half) Probe, Ann L. (MD/Proct.) would be calling our heroes. Timo Saloniemi

November 24 2009, 08:52 PM	#20
CoveTom Rear Admiral Location: CoveTom	Re: Uniform colours- is there a system? Some clarification on Data's uniform colors: The switching of red and yellow from their TOS roles was already planned from the beginning. The problem was that Data tested bad in blue. He was originally supposed to be called the science officer, just like Spock. However, when they put him in the blue medical/sciences uniform, they didn't think it worked well with his android makeup and contact lenses. So they created a new position, operations officer, that allowed him to wear the yellow ship operations uniforms. Red was never really a consideration for him. It's too bad, though. Personally, I think his makeup and contacts look horrible with the yellow and would have looked ten times better in either red or blue. As I recall, there were even some Photoshopped images posted around here a while back showing him in the different colors.

November 25 2009, 09:50 AM	#21
Snaploud Admiral Location: Massachusetts, USA	Re: Uniform colours- is there a system? I think Data should have transitioned to red sometime during the show (part of his progression to take over the first officer position--which really should have happened by the series end). It was a huge WTF moment when Deanna Troi was promoted above Data in Thine Own Self.

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