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Old November 24 2009, 09:54 PM   #16
Praxius
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

Triskelion wrote: View Post
^ yup .

You can really see the behavioral differences too, in their posture and attitudes, like how Timo described it, going from robomen to zombies. They're really aggressive in the film.
That there I would attribute to needing to be more aggressive with Humans then with past aliens they encountered.

Back when Q tossed Picard and crew to meet the first Borg, the teleported to the ship, did their thing, didn't need to get physical all that much, because they felt they had everything under control and would be able to take them all out with little effort.

Then later on Picard/Locutus, Riker and crew destroyed a cube and screwed up all their plans.... then they screwed them up even more with sending a borg with individuality back to the collective..... then Lore screwed them up even more by getting involved and making them more aggressive..... that probably didn't give the entire collective an incentive of being more aggressive, but the encounters with Janeway in the Delta Q. how much trouble she brought to the table, how many times she tricked them, etc. etc...... I'd say that eventually the Borg lost patience with us and started to get more aggressive with taking out individuals and assimilating them, since these individuals seemed to be pretty crafty and dangerous.

Just a theory.
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Old November 24 2009, 10:50 PM   #17
Skele-Tom
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

Praxius wrote: View Post
Triskelion wrote: View Post
^ yup .

You can really see the behavioral differences too, in their posture and attitudes, like how Timo described it, going from robomen to zombies. They're really aggressive in the film.
That there I would attribute to needing to be more aggressive with Humans then with past aliens they encountered.

Back when Q tossed Picard and crew to meet the first Borg, the teleported to the ship, did their thing, didn't need to get physical all that much, because they felt they had everything under control and would be able to take them all out with little effort.

Then later on Picard/Locutus, Riker and crew destroyed a cube and screwed up all their plans.... then they screwed them up even more with sending a borg with individuality back to the collective..... then Lore screwed them up even more by getting involved and making them more aggressive..... that probably didn't give the entire collective an incentive of being more aggressive, but the encounters with Janeway in the Delta Q. how much trouble she brought to the table, how many times she tricked them, etc. etc...... I'd say that eventually the Borg lost patience with us and started to get more aggressive with taking out individuals and assimilating them, since these individuals seemed to be pretty crafty and dangerous.

Just a theory.
That also fits with the recent novels. In the books it got to the point that the Borg were so pissed(so to speak) about getting blocked at every assimilation attempt, that they ended up deciding to forget assimilating and decided to just attempt to eradicate humanity instead. They killed first and assimilated only if it was an advantage.
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Old November 25 2009, 08:24 AM   #18
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

This really makes the Borg less frightening as enemies. Genocidal maniacs on a rampage are dull; infinitely patient half-machine monsters intent on helping mankind reach a higher plane of existence are a much more sinister threat.

Also, it sounds rather dimwitted that humans or Feds would be an exceptional threat to the Borg. They've no doubt swallowed bigger catch whole in the preceding millennia; in VOY, we saw them in major assimilation action, establishing their anti-human antics as mere love pats.

Why would something as old as the Borg change merely because it met a bald human and then a redheaded one?

Timo Saloniemi
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Old November 25 2009, 02:46 PM   #19
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

Perhaps Humans were the only ones who individually went as far to infiltrate Unimatrix 01?
Also, Janeway destroyed one of their TW hubs which connected to other hubs in the Galaxy and ultimately obliterated the ENTIRE TW network.

Now, granted, we don't know if any other races that came before them ever did such a thing ... but even if they did have a solution, Humans were the only ones willing to implement risky plans into actions and achieved variable results.

The destruction of the TW network would not be something minor to the Borg after all.
While I agree that the whole 'raged queen' approach was rather ... out of character, and I preferred the Borg without the queen concept to begin with, but the books can work with a premise that Janeway's actions (which were more frequent compared to Picard's) rather forced the Borg to implement a new strategy against Humans (translation: extinction).
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Old November 25 2009, 04:22 PM   #20
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

Just a point of 'sadness' for me is a Klingon Borg.

I would have liked to have thought that perhaps there was a species out there with a natural biological resistance to or shear power of will ability to not have the Borg tech take them.
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Old November 25 2009, 05:00 PM   #21
The Wormhole
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

NIUPonyBoy wrote: View Post
I would have liked to have thought that perhaps there was a species out there with a natural biological resistance to or shear power of will ability to not have the Borg tech take them.
Denobulans can resist Borg assmiliation long enough to pruge the nono-probes from their own body.
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Old November 25 2009, 05:14 PM   #22
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

I prefer the new look, it's more scary. However it is confusing. The thing about asexual drones dosn't explain much because none of the voyager crew/ TNG crew in first contact seem to show any suprise to them looking different. Plus Picard looks like the 'Asexual' Drones when he was assimulated. It's a nice try for an explaination but all it is really is that they had a larger budget for first contact.

Did you know that they original planned to make the borg insects (Hive mind) but due to budget made them the way they were
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Old November 25 2009, 05:33 PM   #23
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
NIUPonyBoy wrote: View Post
I would have liked to have thought that perhaps there was a species out there with a natural biological resistance to or shear power of will ability to not have the Borg tech take them.
Denobulans can resist Borg assmiliation long enough to pruge the nono-probes from their own body.
As I recall, the main character in the Borg PC game was of a species which could enter a sort of trance, which allowed him to retain his psyche through the assimilation process.
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Old November 26 2009, 04:47 AM   #24
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

Timo wrote: View Post
This really makes the Borg less frightening as enemies. Genocidal maniacs on a rampage are dull;
And yet the Federation has never actually faced a genocidal power capable of annihilating all life within the Federation before. And I dare say that the Borg in Star Trek: Destiny are much more frightening, and make for much better villains, than they have in any Star Trek story since "Scorpion" or Star Trek: First Contact. The Federation has really never faced its own imminent genocide before.

Why would something as old as the Borg change merely because it met a bald human and then a redheaded one?
The destruction of the transwarp conduit network in "Endgame." It rendered the Collective unable to use transwarp drive and represented the greatest setback they've had from any species apart from 8472. As such, they came to view the Federation as an existential threat requiring immediate extermination.
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Old November 26 2009, 02:30 PM   #25
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
NIUPonyBoy wrote: View Post
I would have liked to have thought that perhaps there was a species out there with a natural biological resistance to or shear power of will ability to not have the Borg tech take them.
Denobulans can resist Borg assmiliation long enough to pruge the nono-probes from their own body.
That was only an example on Phlox himself, and not Denobulans as a species in general.
Perhaps his individual immune system was more resistant in comparison to that of other Denobulans.
And furthermore, the nanoprobes would eventually adapt themselves to his physiology and would transmit this data to the Collective, which in the future would not be a problem.
Lucky for him though, the Borg ship that sent the message to the DQ was destroyed, and we don't know if data in question was transmitted as well.
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Old November 26 2009, 03:36 PM   #26
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

Sci wrote: View Post
The destruction of the transwarp conduit network in "Endgame." It rendered the Collective unable to use transwarp drive and represented the greatest setback they've had from any species apart from 8472. As such, they came to view the Federation as an existential threat requiring immediate extermination.
As I recall, they only destroyed that one Transwarp Hub that was in the nebula. But Seven of Nine noted the Borg had a few others kicking around.
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Old November 27 2009, 04:34 AM   #27
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
The destruction of the transwarp conduit network in "Endgame." It rendered the Collective unable to use transwarp drive and represented the greatest setback they've had from any species apart from 8472. As such, they came to view the Federation as an existential threat requiring immediate extermination.
As I recall, they only destroyed that one Transwarp Hub that was in the nebula. But Seven of Nine noted the Borg had a few others kicking around.
"Endgame" is fairly ambiguous, actually, but I certainly walked away from that episode with the impression that the entire network of transwarp apertures and their hubs had been destroyed, and that's the interpretation that the Destiny trilogy is built on.
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Old November 27 2009, 04:41 AM   #28
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

Deks wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
NIUPonyBoy wrote: View Post
I would have liked to have thought that perhaps there was a species out there with a natural biological resistance to or shear power of will ability to not have the Borg tech take them.
Denobulans can resist Borg assmiliation long enough to pruge the nono-probes from their own body.
That was only an example on Phlox himself, and not Denobulans as a species in general.
AFAIK, Phlox assumed that his whole species was resistant to Borg assimilation. He didn't treat it as something unique to himself.
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Old November 27 2009, 04:49 AM   #29
Sci
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Deks wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post

Denobulans can resist Borg assmiliation long enough to pruge the nono-probes from their own body.
That was only an example on Phlox himself, and not Denobulans as a species in general.
AFAIK, Phlox assumed that his whole species was resistant to Borg assimilation. He didn't treat it as something unique to himself.
Phlox was also a 22nd Century scientist dealing with technology from the 24th Century that was already hundreds of years more advanced than the 24th Century Federation. We shouldn't treat his speculations as binding.
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Old November 27 2009, 08:28 AM   #30
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Re: About the Borg's apperance....

"It has always bothered me that we might have to accept that the Borg were always supposed to look like how they did in First Contact with no explanation at all except because TNG didn't have a big budget."

No offense to you personally, but it's always bothered me when they try to "explain" the obvious, making farce of it all. Wouldn't we be better served by having the writers create new stories, ever better ones, or have the effects people retouch things than come up with lame fourth-wall shattering excuses for the nature of real-life reality? Make-up gets better, effects get better, cameras get better, language patterns change, social norms change. I don't care as much why Klingons look different between TOS and TNG as much as why they even matter any more. When we saw them last, I had a hard time believing they could even pronounce "phaser," let alone build one.
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