RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,803
Posts: 5,471,755
Members: 25,036
Currently online: 552
Newest member: kriegaex

TrekToday headlines

Shatner Book Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Nov 20

Trek Original Series Slippers
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Hemsworth Is Sexiest Man Alive
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Trek Business Card Cases
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

February IDW Publishing Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

Retro Review: The Siege of AR-558
By: Michelle on Nov 15

Trevco Full Bleed Uniform T-Shirts
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14

Wheaton Buys Wesley Crusher Hoodie
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14

People’s Choice Award Nominations
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14

Quinto: Not Internally Homophobic
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 20 2009, 07:25 PM   #31
avalonmistmoon
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Mountains of Solace & Solitude
Re: V: the series

Christopher wrote: View Post
Dar70 wrote: View Post
Yeah the final battle and tv series are pretty bad. To be truthful the original mini series has it flaws as well. Silly that the visitors have 50 mother ships with thousands of soldiers and advanced weapons and they cant stop a dozen resistance fighters in each city.
And how much luck has the US military had stopping small bands of guerrilla fighters in Iraq or Afghanistan? There's nothing remotely unrealistic about this. The whole reason guerrilla warfare does work is because its forces are small and mobile and can easily disappear, provided they have the support of the general populace. It's why terrorism is so hard to fight, and why guerrilla warfare is so often successful.

Remember that the original V miniseries was an allegory for the rise of Nazism in Europe. Everything in it had a historical equivalent, including the resistance.


They could of at least shown some government involement after the first half of the original mini, but after that they are almost completely nonexsistant. We never (as far as I remember) see any goverment involment at all, except a fighter pilot in one episode and the President for a couple minutes in the first mini series. Of course we see the police but thats it.(and they are on the side of the visitors)
Well, that was one thing that worked about the original miniseries -- the emphasis on ordinary people and how they were affected by all this. Implicitly, the government had fallen under the Visitors' thrall. That's what smart occupiers do; they co-opt the local authority structures to serve their agendas.

As for the second mini and the series, there it's just conceptual sloppiness.

Don't forget that there was a Fifth Column with the "V" that helped us. I remembered because I had a crush on Martin. A blond, handsome and a hulk of an alien. "sigh"

The miniseries was great and remember it fondly.
__________________
---------------------------------
avalonmistmoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20 2009, 07:47 PM   #32
diankra
Commodore
 
Location: UK
Re: V: the series

The more you think it through, the more you have to conclude that - as hinted in passing in the original mini-series, or at least the novelisation, it's not really the water that makes Earth useful, it's an intelligent-ish population of 6 billion who can be kidnapped, brainwashed, and used as conscripts in The Leader's wars against The Enemy (which is about as deep as it got about who they actually were :-)).
That would have been an interesting angle to take: perhaps, just as the chemicals the Visitors supposedly wanted turned out to be irrelevant, taking the water was only a means to an end: by causing crop failures the Visitors could force Humanity into refugee camps where they could be controlled? When you look at a lot of history, most recently the recruitment of child soldiers from refugee camps along the Rwandan/Burandan borders, it makes a nasty sort of sense.

An after thought: Possibly, trying to think about the Visitors' plan in terms of scientific credibility is missing the point (waits for someone to point out that trying to think V through seriously is definitely missing the point).
As Christopher points out, you have to see V as an allegory: if you take it as read that, as hinted more in the book than onscreen, that The Leader came to power through a populist movement in a failing democracy where ordinary people are having a hard time becasue of some recent defeat, akin to Weimar Germany, then his plans only have to make sense politically, in the mind of a dictator clinging to power.
It doesn't matter that saving Sirius by stealing water from other planets won't work, what matters is that it shows The Leader has a Great Plan to save the planet, one which requires sacrifice and service from the people (under his control, of course). And as a bonus it even gives the nastier among these ordinary people a chance to lord it over 'lesser peoples' on other worlds.
__________________
"Some days are better than others. They say that where I come from."
"Loudly, I imagine, on the day you left."
(Blake's 7 - Rumours of Death)

Last edited by diankra; November 20 2009 at 11:15 PM. Reason: Additional thought, and typos
diankra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20 2009, 11:52 PM   #33
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
 
Location: the Unreconstructed South
Re: V: the series

Christopher wrote: View Post
Lookingglassman wrote: View Post
I dont understand why the Vs dont take what they want. What is the point of being nice just to gain our favor? If I was an evil alien race and wanted something from a planet that can't defeat me I will just take it and not waste the time getting to know them.
Tell that to the British in India. Sure, you can use brute force to take what you want, but it's easier and less expensive if you can win over the local authorities and get them to do it for you. The Visitors were suffering from shortages of food and water, so it made sense that they would need to conserve their resources and rely on indigenous labor and authority structures.
There's also the fact, mentioned by Martin in the first mini, that the Visitors have been (and are) at war with other races and/or factions. John's "little fleet" may have been all the Leader could spare for the project.
darkwing_duck1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2009, 06:30 PM   #34
23skidoo
Admiral
 
Location: Fifth Circle of Hell
Re: V: the series

Some general thoughts about the V series. I was and remain quite fond of it. I don't accept the "bad SFX" argument, though, because frankly there was no such thing as good SFX on American (or British) television until CGI got cheap enough to be used for TV. So in my opinion "good SFX" didn't arrive till only about 15 years ago. Even DS9's effects, in retrospect, don't hold up as well as we thought they might back in 1994.

V the series was hurt by the fact that, in 1984, the only US shows that did arc storytelling were soap operas like Dallas and Dynasty. Therefore that was the only model they had to go on, which is why we started to see "soap opera" elements (as if those are somehow a bad thing) emerging in V. By soap opera, in the SF context that would appear to mean plotlines involving personal relationships over SF concepts ... the type of stuff Roddenberry wanted to do with Trek. But I digress.

SF otherwise was expected to be delivered in bite-size stand-alone pieces that could be watched in any order -- which was a prime factor in Star Trek TOS being so successful in syndication (only since the 80s have broadcasters bothered to show that program in its original order). And that's why Doctor Who failed as a mainstream syndicated show (an attempt was made with Pertwee and Baker), but was accepted on PBS where serialized storytelling from the UK was commonplace.

What that all means from my perspective is the writers at the time couldn't keep the momentum going, and you could tell they were starting to "toss everything in but the kitchen sink", such as bringing in Duncan Regher's character and introducing a love triangle between him, Diana, and Lydia. We also started to see characters brought back from the dead like Martin.

The show also made a big mistake out of the gate by not having Michael Ironside's character Ham Tyler from the get-go. He was the best thing about the 2nd mini-series, and he was really missed when the weekly series began. By the time he came back, it was too late.

I never had a problem with the casting on V. Faye Grant and Marc Singer were great, as was the pre-Freddy Robert Englund. Jane Badler and June Chadwick remain two of the sexiest gals to ever grace 1980s TV, and Jennifer Cooke probably would have gone on to be a big star if she hadn't retired from acting a year later to run the Celestial Seasonings tea company (no joke).

From a long-term view, the show's reputation was also harmed by the ending of the first season (which I won't spoil), which hasn't held up well.

I agree I don't understand the hatred for the V series (or the second mini), unless you buy into the "it's old therefore it's bad" mentality that seems to be plaguing our society. There's plenty to criticize in V, to be sure, and it probably didn't deserve to last more than a season, but I find it no better, no worse than the average American-produced network science fiction of the day.

Alex
23skidoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2009, 09:13 PM   #35
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: V: the series

23skidoo wrote: View Post
The show also made a big mistake out of the gate by not having Michael Ironside's character Ham Tyler from the get-go. He was the best thing about the 2nd mini-series, and he was really missed when the weekly series began. By the time he came back, it was too late.
You have it backward. Ironside was a regular in the first dozen episodes of the series. He was then dropped from the final seven episodes, along with Blair Tefkin, Lane Smith, and Michael Wright, as a result of budget cuts.


I agree I don't understand the hatred for the V series (or the second mini), unless you buy into the "it's old therefore it's bad" mentality that seems to be plaguing our society.
Nope, it was regarded as pretty bad even back when it was new -- which is part of why it only had 19 episodes. Maybe opinions of it are lower now than they were at the time, but that's because we've had more time to compare it to the original mini, to learn about how the sequels were taken away from Kenneth Johnson and retooled, and to see how much better and more sophisticated SF television can be.


There's plenty to criticize in V, to be sure, and it probably didn't deserve to last more than a season, but I find it no better, no worse than the average American-produced network science fiction of the day.
And that's part of the problem, considering how much better than that the original miniseries was. If V had been intended as nothing but mindless fluff from the get-go, it might be nostalgically appreciated as such, like Knight Rider is. But it started out as something so much smarter and more meaningful and then got aggressively retooled and dumbed down. It's a classic case of how network meddling can take something special and ruthlessly homogenize it.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2009, 09:35 PM   #36
Deckerd
Fleet Arse
 
Deckerd's Avatar
 
Location: the Frozen Wastes
Re: V: the series

I've just realised now reading this that the significance V has been changed from the original. How utterly asinine. There is no hope for this show since it cannot even grasp the meaning of the letter V.
__________________
They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance.
Deckerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2009, 10:51 PM   #37
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: V: the series

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I've just realised now reading this that the significance V has been changed from the original. How utterly asinine. There is no hope for this show since it cannot even grasp the meaning of the letter V.
It still means V for Victory. The aliens' Victory.
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22 2009, 02:04 AM   #38
Ancient Mariner
Rear Admiral
 
Ancient Mariner's Avatar
 
Location: On a ship of Samuel Walters' imagination.
View Ancient Mariner's Twitter Profile
Re: V: the series

Christopher wrote: View Post
There's plenty to criticize in V, to be sure, and it probably didn't deserve to last more than a season, but I find it no better, no worse than the average American-produced network science fiction of the day.
And that's part of the problem, considering how much better than that the original miniseries was. If V had been intended as nothing but mindless fluff from the get-go, it might be nostalgically appreciated as such, like Knight Rider is. But it started out as something so much smarter and more meaningful and then got aggressively retooled and dumbed down. It's a classic case of how network meddling can take something special and ruthlessly homogenize it.
Even the final act of the original miniseries eschewed character development for a plot-based narrative. And when you do that, you open your story to questions about the plausibility of the plot.

Even so, the original mini-series was a story about something important. But once the inevitable sequel arrive in The Final Battle, the network chose to capitalize on the concept with plenty of action and melodrama (Donovan taking advantage of Julie, for example) -- at the expense of real character development or exploration. It's a shame. But the fact that the new V didn't learn the lessons from The Final Battle or the weekly series is inexplicable.
__________________
Ancient Mariner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22 2009, 04:15 AM   #39
Morpheus 02
Commodore
 
Location: Chicago IL
Re: V: the series

Some quick thoughts on the original TV show...

Good

The idea of multiple sides in the war. Vistors & Resistance, but Nathan Bates playing both sides

Julie pretending to be on Nathan's side/not Resistance

Bad

Every episode, Mike & the gang having to introduce themselves to people. Wouldn't Mike Donovan be he most recognizable man on the planet?

The "love Triangle" between a guy , a just former teenager, and her 2 (two!) year old daughter

The wrong characters being cut
__________________
Morpheus 02
a.k.a.
JP Paulus jp [at] paulus . com
Morpheus 02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22 2009, 04:19 AM   #40
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: V: the series

I only had two real problems with the series:

- The cool echoing effect was gone from the Visitors' voices.

- Martin/Philip. Unless the look of a Visitor's human disguise is somehow 'tied' to his/her actual reptilian appearance (which is not a bad idea, really), there is no way that anyone could immediately recognize Philip as Martin's twin brother. Any Visitor could be the one under that mask.

I will say this, though. Something that really creeped me out about the series: When the Visitor 'Marta' is framed for Charles' death, and her sentence is to spend the rest of her life...floating through space, locked inside the pod with Charles' corpse.
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22 2009, 04:42 AM   #41
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: V: the series

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I only had two real problems with the series:

- The cool echoing effect was gone from the Visitors' voices.
Which was a symptom of the lower budget of the series as opposed to the miniseries. Though it also created the story opportunity for having Visitors pass for human on occasion.


- Martin/Philip. Unless the look of a Visitor's human disguise is somehow 'tied' to his/her actual reptilian appearance (which is not a bad idea, really), there is no way that anyone could immediately recognize Philip as Martin's twin brother. Any Visitor could be the one under that mask.
Ahh, but only a twin would have the same voice, right?
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 22 2009, 05:32 AM   #42
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: V: the series

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
- Martin/Philip. Unless the look of a Visitor's human disguise is somehow 'tied' to his/her actual reptilian appearance (which is not a bad idea, really), there is no way that anyone could immediately recognize Philip as Martin's twin brother. Any Visitor could be the one under that mask.
Ahh, but only a twin would have the same voice, right?
AFAIK, Diana immediately recognizes Philip before he even says a word.

And the (few) sets of twins I have seen, have had much the same voices. Anyone remember the Sklar brothers (comedy) or the Laurances (acting)?
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22 2009, 03:27 PM   #43
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: V: the series

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
AFAIK, Diana immediately recognizes Philip before he even says a word.
Nobody ever said the series was intelligently written. But then, maybe she recognized him by his scent or electrical field or something else that Sirian senses are attuned to.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 23 2009, 12:37 AM   #44
blockaderunner
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Re: V: the series

After buying and watching the original mini a while back, what upset me most about the The Final Battle and the series was the fact that one of the Visitor resistance members in the original mini mentioned a force that was against Diana and the Visitors and that at the end of the mini, the blonde scientist had some SETI type array set up to try to find that foe in the deep reaches of space and once TFB aired, there was no mention of that foe at all. I guess if the new series used that, fans would be making comparisons to SG1's Tok'ra. But it still would have been nice to know who that foe was and if they would have helped against the visitors.
__________________
If God is willing but not able to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent. If he is able but not willing, then he is malevolent. If he is willing and able, then whence come evil? If he is neither willing nor able, then why call him God?
blockaderunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23 2009, 01:55 AM   #45
Ancient Mariner
Rear Admiral
 
Ancient Mariner's Avatar
 
Location: On a ship of Samuel Walters' imagination.
View Ancient Mariner's Twitter Profile
Re: V: the series

It's true that the Final Battle and weekly series essentially ignored this point in favor of more action-driven fare. Plus, I suspect the cost of integrating a decidedly alien-looking race into the show would have been prohibitive. If you're wondering where V creator Kenneth Johnson was heading with the idea, there's always the book: V: The Second Generation, in which he introduces the Zedti -- a human-looking-but-insectoid race who are mortal enemies with the Vs. Be warned, though -- the book isn't very good and its essential plot is almost entirely a mirror of The Final Battle.
__________________
Ancient Mariner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
visitors

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.