What Don't You Like About "Batman Forever"? - Page 3

Davros · November 6 2009, 04:34 AM

Galactus wrote:

That is why Forever was such a huge flop after the greatest of Returns, oh wait....it was the other way around.

Returns sucked as well.

Chrisisall · November 6 2009, 04:51 AM

Kolrad wrote:

but I don't understand why the people who do seem to hate Batman & Robin so much; the two movies seem pretty similar to me. Corny jokes, villains making tons of puns, flashy colors, impossible architecture-- very much a comic book feel.

I liked Clooney WAAAY better than Kilmer as Bruce Wayne, and the over-the-top wackyness was much more dealworthy in B&R than in BF IMO.
Plus, the idea of redemption in B&R was a welcome tiny treat after the shallow "evil peeps are just evil" riff from its predessesor.

I'm BATChrisisall

Chrisisall · November 6 2009, 04:53 AM

Davros wrote:

Returns sucked as well.

Aside from Michelle, I agree.

Meowisall

Mr. Adventure · November 6 2009, 04:55 AM

I have never seen much difference between this and the much-maligned Batman and Robin. The neon-and-smoke thing doesn't do much for me and it's sad watching Tommy Lee Jones trying to out-ham Jim Carrey.

Davros · November 6 2009, 05:25 AM

Chrisisall wrote:

Davros wrote:

Returns sucked as well.

Aside from Michelle, I agree.

Meowisall

She was the only worth while thing in the entire film.

barnaclelapse · November 6 2009, 05:07 PM

Mr. Adventure wrote:

I have never seen much difference between this and the much-maligned Batman and Robin. The neon-and-smoke thing doesn't do much for me and it's sad watching Tommy Lee Jones trying to out-ham Jim Carrey.

I thought (and still do) that it was hysterical. Jones is a lot better at camp than Carrey, but that's just me.

I still think Returns is the best of the franchise, but I have a feeling I'm pretty alone in that opinion.

LitmusDragon · November 6 2009, 05:14 PM

I think it's a fun, stupid movie with a lot of visual flair. If I see it when I'm flipping channels, I'll usually stop and watch at least some of it.

Galactus · November 6 2009, 06:08 PM

Kolrad wrote:

It's interesting how much people's opinions on this movie vary-- I wonder if it makes a big difference whether people saw them in the theater when they were first coming out or if they saw them all later on TV or video.

The first Batman movie I saw in the theater was Batman Begins, which is still my favorite of the bunch.

I found the earlier movies disappointing after seeing that, though I enjoyed Batman Returns for the atmosphere and feeling it created.

I thought that Batman & Robin was terrible, and I was surprised to find that Batman Forever wasn't much better.

I can understand that some enjoy Batman Forever's variety of silliness (though I think the 60s series and movie did it much, much better), but I don't understand why the people who do seem to hate Batman & Robin so much; the two movies seem pretty similar to me. Corny jokes, villains making tons of puns, flashy colors, impossible architecture-- very much a comic book feel.

Most people dislike Batman and Robin because it is different and just bad. To this day I still don't see how they managed to make a bad Batman movie with George Clooney as Batman. I mean the guy is Bruce Wayne in real life. If you grew up in the 80's or 90's then this is not a Batman you would know. If you are older you will. I mean everything about B&R is wrong from Bane, to Poison Ivy to Mr. Freeze.

There is nothing wrong with Batman Forever except that visually it is different from what they know. As I said before I remember the relief and pleasure so many older people felt when Forever came out cause they disliked Returns so much. It was way too dark and weird for them, but for a lot of folks here that is what they like. It was not kid friendly which also made parents mad. To me Begins is just Forever but taking all the jokes away and Tommy Lee. Same kind of discovery story just with the jokes and the neon.

Kolrad · November 6 2009, 08:01 PM

But how are the villains in Batman and Robin "wrong"? They seem to follow the exact same pattern as the villains in Batman Forever. Neither movie is particularly concerned with giving the villains a lot of complexity or treating them seriously the way that The Dark Knight tries to do with Two-Face (he doesn't even become Two-Face until the last third of the movie).

Two-Face in Batman Forever is just a guy who's obsessed with duality the same way that the Riddler is obsessed with riddles, Poison Ivy is obsessed with plants, and Freeze is obsessed with cold. They each take their theme to the greatest possible extreme without concern for plausibility; you're not supposed to ask how or when the Riddler built that gigantic question mark tower, for instance-- he has it because he's the Riddler!

I'm not saying that it's wrong to take that approach to Batman and his villains; it's just a matter of taste. But I don't see a significant difference between the villains in Batman Forever and Batman and Robin, at least in terms of how they are written. (If it's just a matter of not liking the performance as much, I can understand that; Schwarzenegger is pretty one-note as Freeze.)

Galactus · November 6 2009, 08:21 PM

Kolrad wrote:

(If it's just a matter of not liking the performance as much, I can understand that; Schwarzenegger is pretty one-note as Freeze.)

Well that is what I meant. They turned Bane into a bodyguard flunky. Batgirl, was wrong in every way you can imagine. Mr. Freeze actually turned out to be a different kind of bad guy which was different.

I mean you can't get mad about Batman villians, that is what they do even on the loved BTAS. The Joker is in it for laughs, Poison Ivy for the plants, Mr. Freeze deals out cold vengeance, The Riddler wants everyone to know he is smarter than they are, and the list goes on.

Praetor · November 8 2009, 01:56 AM

I can honestly say I'm glad to hear concrete reasons why the movie is disliked. Most people I talk to just say how much better the other movies are, and don't say why the others are bad.

That said, to me the difference between the quality of Batman: Forever and Batman & Robin was that B&R took the stuff that was bad with BF (the "liberties") to an extreme that was impossible to ignore. I can live with completely revamping a character when it enhances rather than detracting the story. Hell, TAS more or less single-handedly made Mr. Freeze relevant by mostly revamping him.

MeanJoePhaser · November 8 2009, 03:13 AM

Batman & Robin is fun to rewatch for sheer awfulness. I barely made it through it in the theater (second run theater, which wasn't the nicest locale, either). Uma is so straight forwardly drag-queenish as Ivy. Arnold uses every cold pun in the book. Alicia Silverstone is flat out terrible. O'Donnel is worse than in Batman Forever. Clooney is like Adam West (often saying his dialouge seriously despite ridiculous situations around him) with a little more one-liner flippancy (Hi, Freeze, I'm Batman." "This is why Superman works alone."). The subplot with Alfred dying that we are supposed to care about but don't because it overshadowed by cast changes and the excessively campy feel of the rest of the film.

Shit, Schumacher even coaxes a bad performance out of John Glover. That's a crime bigger than freezing Gotham City!

Admiral_Young · November 10 2009, 12:24 AM

I loved Batman Forever when I saw it during it's release...except for the nipples and Chris O'Donnell as Robin. Everyone has done a pretty good job at relating what is wrong with this movie. I don't especially mind that Schumaker decided to return to the campy 60's style Batman but I think he could have it better. What are some of the things I don't like about Forever?

1. Chris O'Donnell as Dick Grayson/Robin: I have nothing against the actor, my beef happens to be they decided to make Dick older, I think he was 17 or 18. Why the fuck would Bruce Wayne decide to adapt a 17 year old when he will probably end up leaving in a couple of years anyways. Dick should have been 13 or 14 and maybe gone with an unknown in the role. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it again...Dark Victory does an excellent job of handling the Robin origin. It's dark and moody. Dick is scared and frustrated when he's brought to the mansion. Wonders why Bruce is always gone and abandoned him when he needs someone to talk to...Alfred's fine but Bruce has gone through the same thing. Then he finds the Cave and everything changes. Robin handled correctly could bring a new dynamic to movie Bruce Wayne, force him to adapt and accept the responsibly of being a father.

2. Two Face: They cast someone like Tommy Lee Jones, an excellent actor who can easily do straight up drama and turn a tragic and angry character like Harvey Dent into a comedic farce! I didn't mind the overplaying of the split personality...mostly because we get to see a hot Drew Barrymore and Debi Mazar! The best part of all of Tommy's appearances in the film is when they show Bruce watching video footage of Harvey getting scarred. You can actually see Val trying to be emotional in that scene.

3. Val Kilmer as Bruce Wayne/Batman. Ugh. Too bad Michael Keaton left the role...I thought he was tremendous as Bruce/Batman. Val was very wooden as some have stated. He has some moments as Bruce...but I didn't buy him as the character.

4. The Riddler: Over the top to the max. I liked him as Edward Nigma and his jealous of Bruce Wayne after Bruce rejects his project. Nigma was more deeper a character than Riddler was. JOYGASM basically explains my beef with the character

5. Batmobile....why was it necessary to change the look of the Batmobile? I loved the updated Batwing but hated the Batmobile.

barnaclelapse · November 10 2009, 06:35 PM

Galactus wrote:

Kolrad wrote:

(If it's just a matter of not liking the performance as much, I can understand that; Schwarzenegger is pretty one-note as Freeze.)

Well that is what I meant. They turned Bane into a bodyguard flunky. Batgirl, was wrong in every way you can imagine. Mr. Freeze actually turned out to be a different kind of bad guy which was different.

I mean you can't get mad about Batman villians, that is what they do even on the loved BTAS. The Joker is in it for laughs, Poison Ivy for the plants, Mr. Freeze deals out cold vengeance, The Riddler wants everyone to know he is smarter than they are, and the list goes on.

I still think that on paper, in theory that there was nothing wrong with casting Uma Thurman and Arnie as the bad guys. It's just that something went wretchedly awry with the writing, more or less.

Grant · November 10 2009, 06:44 PM

What Don't You Like About "Batman Forever"?

It's a f*cking comedy---that's what!!

But Jim Carrey is great in it---he's a comic actor and it's a comedy---he did a great job being funny in a comedy.

Don't pretend it's a serious comic-book hero movie though.

November 6 2009, 04:55 AM	#34
Mr. Adventure Admiral Location: Mr. Adventure	Re: What Don't You Like About "Batman Forever"? I have never seen much difference between this and the much-maligned Batman and Robin. The neon-and-smoke thing doesn't do much for me and it's sad watching Tommy Lee Jones trying to out-ham Jim Carrey.

November 6 2009, 05:14 PM	#37
LitmusDragon Commodore Location: The Barmuda Triangle	Re: What Don't You Like About "Batman Forever"? I think it's a fun, stupid movie with a lot of visual flair. If I see it when I'm flipping channels, I'll usually stop and watch at least some of it.

November 6 2009, 08:01 PM	#39
Kolrad Fleet Captain	Re: What Don't You Like About "Batman Forever"? But how are the villains in Batman and Robin "wrong"? They seem to follow the exact same pattern as the villains in Batman Forever. Neither movie is particularly concerned with giving the villains a lot of complexity or treating them seriously the way that The Dark Knight tries to do with Two-Face (he doesn't even become Two-Face until the last third of the movie). Two-Face in Batman Forever is just a guy who's obsessed with duality the same way that the Riddler is obsessed with riddles, Poison Ivy is obsessed with plants, and Freeze is obsessed with cold. They each take their theme to the greatest possible extreme without concern for plausibility; you're not supposed to ask how or when the Riddler built that gigantic question mark tower, for instance-- he has it because he's the Riddler! I'm not saying that it's wrong to take that approach to Batman and his villains; it's just a matter of taste. But I don't see a significant difference between the villains in Batman Forever and Batman and Robin, at least in terms of how they are written. (If it's just a matter of not liking the performance as much, I can understand that; Schwarzenegger is pretty one-note as Freeze.) __________________

November 8 2009, 01:56 AM	#41
Praetor Vice Admiral Location: Totally different head. Totally.	Re: What Don't You Like About "Batman Forever"? I can honestly say I'm glad to hear concrete reasons why the movie is disliked. Most people I talk to just say how much better the other movies are, and don't say why the others are bad. That said, to me the difference between the quality of Batman: Forever and Batman & Robin was that B&R took the stuff that was bad with BF (the "liberties") to an extreme that was impossible to ignore. I can live with completely revamping a character when it enhances rather than detracting the story. Hell, TAS more or less single-handedly made Mr. Freeze relevant by mostly revamping him. __________________ "Dude, put the blasty thing down, and have a toke on this baby." - 420 Kirk.

November 8 2009, 03:13 AM	#42
MeanJoePhaser Admiral Location: Missile Command	Re: What Don't You Like About "Batman Forever"? Batman & Robin is fun to rewatch for sheer awfulness. I barely made it through it in the theater (second run theater, which wasn't the nicest locale, either). Uma is so straight forwardly drag-queenish as Ivy. Arnold uses every cold pun in the book. Alicia Silverstone is flat out terrible. O'Donnel is worse than in Batman Forever. Clooney is like Adam West (often saying his dialouge seriously despite ridiculous situations around him) with a little more one-liner flippancy (Hi, Freeze, I'm Batman." "This is why Superman works alone."). The subplot with Alfred dying that we are supposed to care about but don't because it overshadowed by cast changes and the excessively campy feel of the rest of the film. Shit, Schumacher even coaxes a bad performance out of John Glover. That's a crime bigger than freezing Gotham City!

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November 10 2009, 12:24 AM	#43
Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Location: Metropolis	Re: What Don't You Like About "Batman Forever"? I loved Batman Forever when I saw it during it's release...except for the nipples and Chris O'Donnell as Robin. Everyone has done a pretty good job at relating what is wrong with this movie. I don't especially mind that Schumaker decided to return to the campy 60's style Batman but I think he could have it better. What are some of the things I don't like about Forever? 1. Chris O'Donnell as Dick Grayson/Robin: I have nothing against the actor, my beef happens to be they decided to make Dick older, I think he was 17 or 18. Why the fuck would Bruce Wayne decide to adapt a 17 year old when he will probably end up leaving in a couple of years anyways. Dick should have been 13 or 14 and maybe gone with an unknown in the role. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it again...Dark Victory does an excellent job of handling the Robin origin. It's dark and moody. Dick is scared and frustrated when he's brought to the mansion. Wonders why Bruce is always gone and abandoned him when he needs someone to talk to...Alfred's fine but Bruce has gone through the same thing. Then he finds the Cave and everything changes. Robin handled correctly could bring a new dynamic to movie Bruce Wayne, force him to adapt and accept the responsibly of being a father. 2. Two Face: They cast someone like Tommy Lee Jones, an excellent actor who can easily do straight up drama and turn a tragic and angry character like Harvey Dent into a comedic farce! I didn't mind the overplaying of the split personality...mostly because we get to see a hot Drew Barrymore and Debi Mazar! The best part of all of Tommy's appearances in the film is when they show Bruce watching video footage of Harvey getting scarred. You can actually see Val trying to be emotional in that scene. 3. Val Kilmer as Bruce Wayne/Batman. Ugh. Too bad Michael Keaton left the role...I thought he was tremendous as Bruce/Batman. Val was very wooden as some have stated. He has some moments as Bruce...but I didn't buy him as the character. 4. The Riddler: Over the top to the max. I liked him as Edward Nigma and his jealous of Bruce Wayne after Bruce rejects his project. Nigma was more deeper a character than Riddler was. JOYGASM basically explains my beef with the character 5. Batmobile....why was it necessary to change the look of the Batmobile? I loved the updated Batwing but hated the Batmobile. __________________ Admiral Young Chief of Operations Ignoring the The Last Stand since 2011.

November 10 2009, 06:44 PM	#45
Grant Fleet Captain	Re: What Don't You Like About "Batman Forever"? What Don't You Like About "Batman Forever"? It's a f*cking comedy---that's what!! But Jim Carrey is great in it---he's a comic actor and it's a comedy---he did a great job being funny in a comedy. Don't pretend it's a serious comic-book hero movie though.