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Old November 8 2009, 05:29 AM   #31
Gaith
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

Okay, I take your guys' point on the ubiquity of the ships... but not the ability of the movie Reavers to cooperate.

@ Lindley: No, I didn't know that the TV Simon was so far different. Still, handsome, smart rich guys who have enough guts to bust someone out of a maximum security Alliance facility are rarely the type of guys who can't handle and reciprocate flirtation from wholesome, giggling hotties.
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Old November 8 2009, 05:44 AM   #32
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

I would describe Simon as extremely competent and assured within his own field, but not terribly adaptable. Impersonating a doctor in a high-tech facility is easy; that's what he's used to being. But his skills don't translate well to the environments Serenity spends most of its time in, and he knows it.
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Old November 8 2009, 06:00 AM   #33
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

bigdaddy wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
bigdaddy wrote: View Post
That is your huge plot hole?

How about the fact they were supposed to be doing very poorly and still got money for a hover car?
Money they likely got from selling the Lacetar laser pistol that they stole "Trash." Remember, 6 months had passed between "Objects in Space" and the movie. A lot can happen in 6 months.

In the movie that said they had very hard times the last few months.


Times so hard that they got a hover car?
Or they got the hover car BEFORE times got hard. As far as plot holes go, this one is not too difficult to fill.
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Old November 8 2009, 06:32 AM   #34
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

Chiming in here:

A lot of the so-called 'plot holes' mentioned in this thread are either things that Whedon chose to ignore (i.e. the logistics of what it would actually take to terraform the planets we see in the 'Verse), or things that ended up being changed due to the necessities of the story being continued in movie form (Simon's characterization being the biggest example).

Regarding how/when the crew acquired the hover-mule, that is explained in the comic 'Those Left Behind', which takes place prior to the movie and also explains how Book and Inara got to Haven and the training house, respectively.
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Old November 8 2009, 06:50 AM   #35
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

The movie simply wasn't as good as the series, unfortunately. It was enjoyable, and it succeeding in bringing some degree of closure, but it just didn't leave the fans wanting more in quite the same way the show did. I dunno, maybe we were all burnt out and grateful just to get *that* much.
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Old November 8 2009, 03:46 PM   #36
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

One turn-off in the movie for me was Mal. I know Whedon wanted him more serious, but he was damn near sociopathic in the film. That may have been the one "note" from the network that was right - I liked funny series Mal a lot more than cold-blooded movie Mal.
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Old November 8 2009, 04:00 PM   #37
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

Mal was always a trifle sociopathic. The scene in "The Train Job" where he just offs the villain guy after his token intimidating speech comes to mind (or shooting a guy in mid-sentence in "Serenity"). It's part of his cool, badass, all-American attitude: If you can solve a problem quickly and effectively with a gun, why not?

I was willing to roll with that, moreso than I was Firefly's tendency to romanticise him as an honourable thief (I assume Whedon figured audiences wouldn't like a show about a mere small-time smuggler, or maybe he just didn't like the idea... given our desire to see heroes, he may have a point there.)

Kaijima wrote: View Post
Joss wasn't the only worldbuilder involved though; I'd be curious to see how much Tim's input went in. Also, Firefly's universe is, overall, still better constructed than most television sci-fi universes.
I found Firefly's universe the weakest aspect of the series. That's not a matter of plausibility when compared to other space opera universes - just how well thought out and/or interesting I considered it compared to other space opera universes. The show's strength are the characters and stories, but it's really best not to think about the universe in episodes like, say, "Hearts of Gold", which is so unapologetically a Western cliche it crossed my mind why they even bothered using the spaceship in the climax.

At its heart, Firefly is of a mind with every single 'write a Western and tack on IN SPACE' cliche from the 1930s. It's not even spacing up Western cliches, it's just presenting them without comment (compare the Mos Eisley Cantina, Star Wars's 'spacey' version of the Western tavern of disreputable sort, to the numerous rote depictions of actual regular Western taverns of the disreputable sort on Firefly.)

It does it a lot better than most of the more literal Western SF, and the addition of Mandarin and some Chinese references keeps the universe from feeling Anglocentric, and the whole 'lived-in' environment and designs, costuming, etc. are all above par... I guess what I'm saying is the Fireflyverse is a helluva lot better realised then it was thought out. A decent budget, sensible design and good writing raised what otherwise could have been a pretty awkward premise to success.

And the big problem for me with the Reavers in Serenity is when we finally see them they're about as frightening and credible as Andromeda's Magog. Heck, Magog are apt in general: Both series go on and on telling us how awesomely evil and rapaciously disgusting these creatures are, but in the flesh they're just guys with ugly makeup/goofy suits jumping about.

Firefly may have been better served by never or rarely showing the Reavers in its entire run, the less we knew of them the more effective they were.
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Old November 8 2009, 05:01 PM   #38
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

Gaith wrote: View Post
Okay, I take your guys' point on the ubiquity of the ships... but not the ability of the movie Reavers to cooperate.
But didn't the series establish that the Reavers weren't that good at maintaining their ships? That one ship flew by leaking radioactive material, and they referred to its state as 'suicidal'.
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Old November 8 2009, 09:54 PM   #39
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

McCoy wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
Okay, I take your guys' point on the ubiquity of the ships... but not the ability of the movie Reavers to cooperate.
But didn't the series establish that the Reavers weren't that good at maintaining their ships? That one ship flew by leaking radioactive material, and they referred to its state as 'suicidal'.
Exactly. Look, it is of course a stretch; most sci-fi /is/ by definition.

But the impression overall I got about how the Reavers are depicted is that they're loonies who go aggro on anyone who is /not them/, operating as a vicious, violent pack but the sinister thing about them is how they retain some vile imitation of intelligence and intent: they can rape, then skin, then eat, a victim in a specific order rather than just killing them and moving on. They can steal a spaceship and retain enough mentality to push the basic buttons that make it fly and move the flight stick around - I'm assuming that the computer systems on these /500 years advanced/ spaceships can, in basic modes, make flying one almost as easy as playing a videogame is today. An arcade game too. Not a flight simulator.

So the crazies go mad, grab some ships, and become crazy pirates looking for more people to eat, pushing the flight sticks towards the planet icons on their viewscreens.

But anything past their immediate goal and desire, such as thinking ahead to fix a leaky reactor, is beyond them. So over time their stolen ships break down. We see tons of dead ships around Miranda in the movie. In the series, dialog is also used to the effect that a ship full of reavers MIGHT not be a threat if they've just returned from a kill and are "full". Maybe the Pax-induced violent rage can be sated for a limited time by indulging the bloodlust.

I don't know. I mean, it's not that impossible to me.

However, I will agree that the inherent problem of ominous offscreen monsters such as the reavers is that it's difficult to show them. I didn't think the reavers were too bad, in the movie. But there was definitely no way to ever live up fully to the creepy space monster vibe established in the series.
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Old November 9 2009, 01:23 AM   #40
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

I do think the movie was as good as the series, but I do generally prefer stories that have a beginning, a middle and an end. Films and episodic television are more satisfying in that regard than open-ended or "arc-oriented" TV shows.
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Old November 9 2009, 08:53 AM   #41
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

Just watched the entire series a month ago with my Dad (who really loved it) and I didn't care for movie as much as I did when I saw it at the theatre. It felt off. As has been pointed out, Alliance ships looked different, Simon was VERY different, didn't care for the explanation of Rivers mental state, the Reaver explanation didn't hold water (as has been pointed out), cargo bay lights were too "sci-fi movie" looking instead of the normal warmer lights.

It was like watching an alt-universe version of Firefly. It's just really noticeable watching it back to back.
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Old November 9 2009, 08:45 PM   #42
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

Haven't read every word posted here, but am I the only one to posit that, if the Reavers themselves are too aggressive to maintain their own ships, might they use that same aggression to subjugate captives from the ships they raid and force them to maintain the ships? We haven't seen the inner workings of a Reaver ship, have we? Maybe they don't kill, eat and rape (order interchangeable) all of their victims - at least not at first. They could be like the Pakleds ("We look for things - things to make our ships go, and then we eat and rape them").

I would think that the biggest plothole in the movie is actually Simon's intimate involvement with River's escape, when the series seemed to establish that he only received her after she was sprung from da joint by his 'associates' ...

(And I look at the mule the same way I looked at the Klingons' foreheads in later Trek - screw ENT's 'explanation' )
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Old November 9 2009, 10:04 PM   #43
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

I don't know, I think that one's justifiable. In the pilot the crew had just found out he wasn't who he said he was. Simon doesn't know much about them, doesn't know how much he can trust them. So he tells them a story which is close to the truth without giving them the impression he might be in any way dangerous.

Not that he *is* particularly dangerous, mind. But he probably thought of himself as dangerous after that rescue stunt!
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Old November 9 2009, 10:10 PM   #44
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

Ptrope wrote: View Post
Haven't read every word posted here, but am I the only one to posit that, if the Reavers themselves are too aggressive to maintain their own ships, might they use that same aggression to subjugate captives from the ships they raid and force them to maintain the ships? We haven't seen the inner workings of a Reaver ship, have we? Maybe they don't kill, eat and rape (order interchangeable) all of their victims - at least not at first. They could be like the Pakleds ("We look for things - things to make our ships go, and then we eat and rape them").
It all boils down to whether you can buy that an atmospheric gas made Reavers psychopathic towards normal humans, but not each other. I don't buy it, for reasons stated above, and I for one have said my peace on the matter.
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Old November 9 2009, 10:54 PM   #45
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Re: Second time for "Serenity"... and ran right into the huge plot hol

Lindley wrote: View Post
I don't know, I think that one's justifiable. In the pilot the crew had just found out he wasn't who he said he was. Simon doesn't know much about them, doesn't know how much he can trust them. So he tells them a story which is close to the truth without giving them the impression he might be in any way dangerous.

Not that he *is* particularly dangerous, mind. But he probably thought of himself as dangerous after that rescue stunt!
I'd buy that if his characterization in the rest of the series didn't match his story so well. Simon is never the man of action the beginning (as well as the rest) of Serenity suggests.
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