What did you like about Nemesis?

[JarodRussell]

J. Allen wrote:

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Bingo. No matter how bad some people might say the movie is, we earned that wedding, dammit!

J.

Should have been at the end of the movie, though. After all the troubles, action and death, a positive happy ending, on Betazed, with a beautiful alien landscape in background, and the movie closes with the departure of the Enterprise and the Titan while the sun sets on Betazed, both ships jumping to warp, but into different directions.

[Cyke101]

One thing that sticks out to me: We FINALLY get to see Riker the Action Hero again, just as he was in TNG. In Generations, we didn't see him do much other than a brief firefight with Soran. First Contact had him (somewhat uncharacteristically, for both him and Picard) leading the Away Team assigned to the Phoenix, but that's understandable all things considered. In Insurrection, he was actually turned away from fighting in order to captain the ship.

But in Nemesis, we FINALLY get to see him lead a security detachment with phasers blaring. We FINALLY get to see him fight one of the main villains in H2H. We FINALLY get to see him in some absurdly cinematic peril, all of which we saw constantly in TNG but not in the films. He even manages to avenge his wife's rape, too, in full dramatic circle. All I have to say is, Go Riker!

[J. Allen]

JarodRussell wrote:

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Should have been at the end of the movie, though. After all the troubles, action and death, a positive happy ending, on Betazed, with a beautiful alien landscape in background, and the movie closes with the departure of the Enterprise and the Titan while the sun sets on Betazed, both ships jumping to warp, but into different directions.

I like your idea of the ending, but I'm not sure about the wedding being at the end. After Data dying, I was seriously depressed for a while and I don't think the wedding would have helped.

Cyke101 wrote:

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One thing that sticks out to me: We FINALLY get to see Riker the Action Hero again, just as he was in TNG. In Generations, we didn't see him do much other than a brief firefight with Soran. First Contact had him (somewhat uncharacteristically, for both him and Picard) leading the Away Team assigned to the Phoenix, but that's understandable all things considered. In Insurrection, he was actually turned away from fighting in order to captain the ship.

But in Nemesis, we FINALLY get to see him lead a security detachment with phasers blaring. We FINALLY get to see him fight one of the main villains in H2H. We FINALLY get to see him in some absurdly cinematic peril, all of which we saw constantly in TNG but not in the films. He even manages to avenge his wife's rape, too, in full dramatic circle. All I have to say is, Go Riker!

Oh yeah. Riker was and still is one of my favorite characters on TNG. It was nice to see him kicking ass again.

J.

[Shazam!]

Cyke101 wrote:

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First Contact had him (somewhat uncharacteristically, for both him and Picard) leading the Away Team assigned to the Phoenix

I think the original draft had Picard on the surface and Riker on the ship, but Patrick Stewart intervened.

[The Wormhole]

I assumed Riker not being in on that action in First Contact and Insurrection was a result of Frakes directing the movies. Especially with First Contact, since I'm pretty sure that was the first movie he ever directed.

[CaptainStoner]

D Man wrote:

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*BUT one thing about the Picard/Data scene that really bugs me is the emphasis on Data acting like he's still in the middle of the series's run. I guess that was Spiner's choice to pretend the emotion chip never existed, but the big-time character regression Data showed in the movie is one of its major problems IMO. As good as this scene's dialogue is, it had a strong feeling of "been there, done that" to it, kind of like Geordi re-explaining humor for the umpteenth time after Data pushed the poor doctor into the holo-ocean during Worf's promotion back in Generations.

That was an aspect of the last two TNG films that bugged me. It apparent in INS, this Data-regression syndrome, as well as NEM. I think it may have been done for the benefit of the general audience, but I had the same impression: that Data was suddenly back around S3 or something.

[DWF]

CaptainStoner wrote:

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That was an aspect of the last two TNG films that bugged me. It apparent in INS, this Data-regression syndrome, as well as NEM. I think it may have been done for the benefit of the general audience, but I had the same impression: that Data was suddenly back around S3 or something.

In Insurrection Geordi said that Data had removed the emotion chip. Despite what Brent Spiner says on the new DVDs he has said in the past that he didn't like the chip.

Still in the end I thought he was more human than ever before byt sacificing his own life as he did.

[Cyke101]

Shazam! wrote:

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I think the original draft had Picard on the surface and Riker on the ship, but Patrick Stewart intervened.

The Wormhole wrote:

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I assumed Riker not being in on that action in First Contact and Insurrection was a result of Frakes directing the movies. Especially with First Contact, since I'm pretty sure that was the first movie he ever directed.

Yeah, if I recall correctly, both of these are true, hence the comment about all factors being understandable. If the final script stayed closer to the original, then the bulk of the movie's forward momentum would have depended on Picard the Well-Renowned History Buff leading the Away Team mission while Action Hero Riker Vs. Borg Queen would have been the subplot. With Picard (the larger character) doing all the heavy action scenes, suddenly that was the main plot.

And I believe that when Stewart suggested that Riker and Picard change places, that Frakes happily accepted that because it would free him up to concentrate more on direction.

Ultimately, what we get is the beginning of Picard the action hero and Riker taking the backseat, both for a change, and while they might have been detrimental moves for future TNG films, they were played to very excellent effect in First Contact (for some reason ).

[Bones]

I think it makes more sense to have Riker on the away team and Picard on the ship. Because of Picard's relationship with the Borg. After all, if we'd have had the opening Locutus scenes, and then Picard has nothing to do with the Borg for the rest of the film, it would have felt a little off.

[Cyke101]

USS Bones wrote:

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I think it makes more sense to have Riker on the away team and Picard on the ship. Because of Picard's relationship with the Borg. After all, if we'd have had the opening Locutus scenes, and then Picard has nothing to do with the Borg for the rest of the film, it would have felt a little off.

Sure, it just goes against what we've mostly seen in TNG, and that's fine given that FC is supposed to be an epic film. It flips the traditional Picard/Riker dynamic around, but narrative-wise, I agree.

At least there was a hint of the old ways: Picard was among the first to get to the Phoenix, and not Riker.

[Bones]

Well, I understand more the complaints about action hero Picard in Insurrestion. But then, it's not completely contrary to TNG. After all, he was on the mission in Chain of Command. He is clearly a capable soldier if necessary. And in the films, it was necessary.

[JarodRussell]

Cyke101 wrote:

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Sure, it just goes against what we've mostly seen in TNG, and that's fine given that FC is supposed to be an epic film. It flips the traditional Picard/Riker dynamic around, but narrative-wise, I agree.

At least there was a hint of the old ways: Picard was among the first to get to the Phoenix, and not Riker.

It isn't out of character for Picard to be engaged in action (the Die Hard episode anyone?). And Riker ALWAYS led the away teams in the show. And it makes much more sense to have Picard deal with the Borg, not Riker. How would that have worked? Picard is on Earth, senses the Borg aboard his ship, and he goes: "Riker, get back to the Enterprise, kill the Borg."?

[SRFX]

JarodRussell wrote:

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(the Die Hard episode anyone?

Wait....the Die Hard episode?

[Bones]

Starship Mine, I believe.

[Cyke101]

USS Bones wrote:

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Well, I understand more the complaints about action hero Picard in Insurrestion. But then, it's not completely contrary to TNG. After all, he was on the mission in Chain of Command. He is clearly a capable soldier if necessary. And in the films, it was necessary.

JarodRussell wrote:

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It isn't out of character for Picard to be engaged in action (the Die Hard episode anyone?).

It's not out of character, but it's out of the norm. Let's all remember that Picard was traditionally a diplomat and academic first, fighter second, hence why the action-oriented character of Riker had to be created. For every episode where Picard had to get his hands dirty, Riker probably had 5 or more. I never said Picard wouldn't fight, but whenever he did on TNG, it was rare. That's what makes his fights special.

Even then, in Starship Mine, he carefully maneuvered his way around the ship, taking terrorists out with resourcefulness, wits, and planning, which is nearly the opposite of how he took out the entire bridge crew in Nemesis (not a lot of planning, a whole lot of PEW PEW PEW!).

And Riker ALWAYS led the away teams in the show. And it makes much more sense to have Picard deal with the Borg, not Riker. How would that have worked? Picard is on Earth, senses the Borg aboard his ship, and he goes: "Riker, get back to the Enterprise, kill the Borg."?

Like I said earlier, within the context of the FILM itself, having Riker and Picard switch roles is appropriate (again, that's why a few posts ago, I said it was okay "all things considered.") And Riker didn't ALWAYS lead the Away Teams -- Picard had once in a while overridden Riker to lead a team himself despite Riker's objections.

I'm pretty sure that had it not been the Borg but some other villain, Picard would have stayed behind with the Phoenix because of his famous scholarly side. But again, there's nothing wrong per se with Picard leading the fight with the Borg either, it's just not what we see very often in TNG.

(I'm now waiting for someone to tell me that Picard was somehow more swashbuckling than Kirk, a better martial artist than Worf, stronger than Data, and more impulsive than Archer).

Oh, if only Shazam! hadn't cut out the words all things considered when he cited my post...

USS Bones wrote:

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He is clearly a capable soldier if necessary. And in the films, it was necessary.

This I'm kind of iffy about, however. Certainly he's a capable soldier, we've seen that several times (BoBW, Yesterday's Enterprise, etc. etc. etc.). But I don't know about his turning into a physical action hero as a form of resolution. Let's also remember that Chain of Command wasn't resolved with guns blazing, but partly because of Picard's integrity and willpower (something I think speaks far more about him than any of his movie fights).

I mention this because there's Shatner Kirk. He solved a film by getting into a face-to-face confrontation twice out of seven movies... and this is Man of Action Kirk. It just seems very odd to me that Picard is put into these situations by writers all four times he's on screen. Even Kirk and Khan were never truly face-to-face. Primarily, I blame the writers for maneuvering Picard into such routes, and they're just a few reasons why I don't like INS and NEM (it was particularly cartoony in NEM, in an 80s Stallone flick kind of way).

With the Borg Queen, sure I can believe that scenario as it was on the Enterprise itself. I can also forgive Soran (to a point) as it was the first TNG movie AND that Picard hadn't yet turned into some sort of dynamo yet (he really did fight like an old man! )