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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old November 5 2009, 04:21 PM   #31
Kirks_Flying_Wig
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

Although I don't like Nemesis generally, I appreciated the way all of the characters were introduced in the wedding reception scene for the benefit of audiences unfamiliar with Trek -- the general public are probably aware of who the "bald captain" is but needed a bit of help knowing who his first officer and counselor are, and which one is "the robot". Compare that scene with the opening scenes of Insurrection where the audience is expected to immediately know who everyone is: Who are those women dressing Picard? His whores? Who is that bearded man who just came in? The eunuch? Is the man with the weird mechanical eyes Picard's PA? Why is Picard so happy to see this "Mr Worf"?

Nemesis also had a good space battle scene (although it went on for far too long). The Bassen Rift provides a backdrop for some rarely seen close-quarter combat (even DS9's battles were in open space and never as dramatically confined), and the Enterprise is seen flying "upside down" at several points, shaking off Trek's past instances of depicting space as nothing more than a flat, black sea.

It was also good to see Tom Hardy having the courage to act so well through his bad lines and ugly costume.
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Old November 5 2009, 04:31 PM   #32
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

My problems with this movie are similar to my feelings towards Trek XI - I just flat out hated the story and the way it was presented. The saving grace for Nemesis is that 7 TV series and 3 movies later I at least cared a little for the characters and enjoyedtheir interactions.

For the most part, I also think the movie looked excellent barring the odd made-for-TV lighting techniques such as the lights going all dark and mysterious when Troi performs her psychic connection.

I liked the space battles, loved the ramming sequence, thought Data jumping through space was quite cool.

The nature vs nurture angle was there but not explored nearly enough. The idea that Picard's clone and Data's twin show up at the same time is overkill. One or the other, please.

I like Tom Hardy as an actor but feel an opportunity was lost by not casting Stewart in the role. He's always angling for more to do in these movies. At least then it wouldn't have been at the expense of other characters (Beverly's first line is 20 odd minutes into the movie; she doesn't even get a line at the wedding).
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Old November 5 2009, 11:46 PM   #33
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

Shazam! wrote: View Post
At least then it wouldn't have been at the expense of other characters (Beverly's first line is 20 odd minutes into the movie; she doesn't even get a line at the wedding).
I quite like this aspect of the film! I like the fact it didn't feel it had to FORCE the characters down our throat just for the sake of screen time. The movie introduced characters when it was necessary and the right time for the story, rather than giving them token lines or dialogue that should've been more appropriately delivered by another character.

Also I forgot to mention in my previous post, probably my favourite scene is Picard standing on the Romulan senate floor, recognising the significance of this event. It felt like a true milestone, and something particularly Trek.
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Old November 6 2009, 05:17 AM   #34
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
The deleted scenes do have some of the movie's best material. Hell, I watch the Commander Madden scene everytime I watch the movie, as I consider that the true ending of the film.
Same here. I love that ending. I love the look on Picard's face when Madden calls him "Jean Luc" and the withering stare when Madden realizes what just happened , I love the characters trying not to laugh behind Picard's back. Oh, and the chair with the seat belts and the very disapproving Mr. Worf, loved that too. Great scene.

CaptainStoner wrote: View Post
I completely agree. The cut-scenes from NEM just kill me. The pacing of the film is very "action-film", but many of these cut character scenes have good depth to them. I would LOVE to see them stitched into a disc release/alternate version.
I was very surprised by the flop that became NEM. I was sure there would be a sequel when I walked out of it. I still think its box-office performance was affected by the oversaturation of TNG on television, and the oft-overlooked fact that it was released in direct competetion with Two Towers.

What I liked most about NEM was the TNG crew interaction, which is also why those cut scenes are a sore point. I also loved the look of the Ent-E, both interior and exterior, in this film.
It certainly does little to push the idea that Baird's a good editor, because apparently he's not, as these scenes would have done an excellent job of fleshing out the characters on a more personal level, and they only took a few moments in the film.

SRFX wrote: View Post
I quite like this aspect of the film! I like the fact it didn't feel it had to FORCE the characters down our throat just for the sake of screen time. The movie introduced characters when it was necessary and the right time for the story, rather than giving them token lines or dialogue that should've been more appropriately delivered by another character.

Also I forgot to mention in my previous post, probably my favourite scene is Picard standing on the Romulan senate floor, recognising the significance of this event. It felt like a true milestone, and something particularly Trek.
There's a cut scene where Beverly is discussing Starfleet Medical with Picard. This takes place during the wedding party. This is also the scene that has Wesley in it.

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Old November 6 2009, 06:11 AM   #35
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

It's good to see more people coming out and saying what they liked, here. When I first joined this forum, it looked like every second topic in the Movies forum was aimed at bashing Nemesis. Personally, I like the film a lot. I don't love it, but I do like it a lot. I think a lot of the hate aimed at it may be because it performed so badly, and seemed to spell the end for Trek at the movies.
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Old November 6 2009, 06:53 AM   #36
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

USS Bones wrote: View Post
It's good to see more people coming out and saying what they liked, here. When I first joined this forum, it looked like every second topic in the Movies forum was aimed at bashing Nemesis. Personally, I like the film a lot. I don't love it, but I do like it a lot. I think a lot of the hate aimed at it may be because it performed so badly, and seemed to spell the end for Trek at the movies.
I think that was part of it. It was lukewarm and bad reviews mixed with despair, and I think it created a potent backlash against Rick Berman/Brannon Braga/Paramount in general. Now, I do believe Stuart Baird deserves a lot of the crap thrown at him, because I think he did a terrible job in fleshing out the movie. Some of the best scenes were cut, the story is just told in as pedestrian a manner as possible, and it is known that he, quite frankly, didn't care about the movie itself, and when you as the Director lack passion, the movie will lack it.

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Old November 6 2009, 07:06 AM   #37
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

I think Baird gets a bit of an unfair rap too. The deleted scenes people think would have improved the film would have contributed to a more disruptive pacing, I think. I like the ending, with B4 starting to remember Blue Skies, Picard walking down the corridor with a slight smile, realising Data may not be lost after all. It's a fairly sombre ending, which I don't mind, but there is that hint of positivity at the end.

And for all the criticism Baird gets, I think there should be some credit where it's due. Nemesis looks and feels much more like a movie than the other TNG features, which is no bad thing.
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Old November 6 2009, 10:53 AM   #38
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

Regarding cut-scenes, the studio fat cats are complete gits for getting the running length of a movie down. If shaving a few seconds off means more showings per day, they'll try their best to make that happen and it's ALWAYS the character stuff that gets sacrificed.
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Old November 6 2009, 01:16 PM   #39
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

After watching the should-have-been-left-in scene* that J. posted here (thanks! ) I watched a bunch more of the deleted scenes on Youtube. Picard and Beverly just casually chatting as old friends was very nice, but then Wesley showed up and it became really painful (he's in Starfleet again?) and forced, as though Wheaton wasn't really interested. The lines didn't help either..."Technobabble engine!" then oh look, babes.

I liked the Madden scene mostly. Levar Burton especially helped to sell it with his quiet look of amusement. It did make me wonder just how Madden got assigned to the E though; I always liked that bit in Riker's backstory where Picard selected him from a huge field of contenders because Riker's file was so strong, including his refusal to allow a previous captain to beam into a dangerous situation. I wonder if Picard had a hand in picking Madden, but I suppose it's more likely he was just a plot device to slip in Riker's parting gift for Picard , with no further thought put into it by Logan. The seatbelt gag didn't work for me at all though, it seemed too proud of itself and the camera oddly lingered on the goofy ensign for a bit too long. I really appreciated Picard's line about heading to Deneb though, it was a cool "full circle" line for fans.

*BUT one thing about the Picard/Data scene that really bugs me is the emphasis on Data acting like he's still in the middle of the series's run. I guess that was Spiner's choice to pretend the emotion chip never existed, but the big-time character regression Data showed in the movie is one of its major problems IMO. As good as this scene's dialogue is, it had a strong feeling of "been there, done that" to it, kind of like Geordi re-explaining humor for the umpteenth time after Data pushed the poor doctor into the holo-ocean during Worf's promotion back in Generations.

Oh and I forgot to mention something you guys have brought up now, which is how great the Enterprise interiors looked this time around. The bridge especially is probably my 2nd favorite Trek bridge, after the still-to-be topped Enterprise-D quasi-redress from Generations.
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Old November 6 2009, 01:58 PM   #40
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

I can hardly find anything that I like about that movie. Out of context, the Enterprise crashing into the Scimitar was pretty fucking great. But within the context of the movie, it was awful.

The scene in the stellar cartography, while being forced, was good, too: Data is finally the one who gives Picard advice.

But the movie as a whole... ugh. So many failed opportunities. So badly directed its not even funny anymore. You even can have fun with all the flaws in The Final Frontier, but you can't with the flaws of this movie.
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Old November 6 2009, 05:14 PM   #41
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

SRFX wrote: View Post
Also I forgot to mention in my previous post, probably my favourite scene is Picard standing on the Romulan senate floor, recognising the significance of this event. It felt like a true milestone, and something particularly Trek.
That's one of the scenes I hated in the film. Logan, Berman and Baird completely whitewashed that whole galactic milestone. The Enterprise went to Romulus! That's more important for the Federation's foreign relations than what happened in TUC (there the Enterprise just met the Chancellor's ship, it didn't actually go to Qo'noS). Such a let-down.
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Old November 6 2009, 05:19 PM   #42
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

Kirks_Flying_Wig wrote: View Post
That's one of the scenes I hated in the film. Logan, Berman and Baird completely whitewashed that whole galactic milestone. The Enterprise went to Romulus! That's more important for the Federation's foreign relations than what happened in TUC (there the Enterprise just met the Chancellor's ship, it didn't actually go to Qo'noS). Such a let-down.
In fairness, how else could it have been handled? Long drawn out scenes of politicians back slapping each other whilst discussing the historical significance and political ramifications?

Isn't the the kind of thing that essentially 'killed' Star Trek and led to whizz-bang-million-mile-an-hour-ADD-explosion-fest of Trek XI?

As someone with a Trek XI avatar, you can't have your cake and eat it.
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Old November 7 2009, 12:27 AM   #43
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

Besides. during the Dominion War, the Bellerophon visited Romulus, and things between the Feds and Rommies seemed much warmer in general. Coming so soon after the war, the Enterprise visiting might not have had quite the same significance, even though relations had clearly cooled somewhat.
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Old November 7 2009, 12:29 AM   #44
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

Shazam! wrote: View Post
In fairness, how else could it have been handled? Long drawn out scenes of politicians back slapping each other whilst discussing the historical significance and political ramifications?

Isn't the the kind of thing that essentially 'killed' Star Trek and led to whizz-bang-million-mile-an-hour-ADD-explosion-fest of Trek XI?
Oh, there are many ways to do a scene that's up tempo yet significant. I wasn't too fond of that scene either because while Picard may have been standing in the senate chamber, he was only there because the senate had been killed, so not quite the same.

As someone with a Trek XI avatar, you can't have your cake and eat it.
Oh, that's nonsense.

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Old November 7 2009, 12:32 AM   #45
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Re: What did you like about Nemesis?

Watched a few scenes again... aw, everyone looks so goddamn tired in this movie. Even in the wedding scene, which should actually be a very happy moment, everyone is looking like they don't want to be there. And when we see the Enterprise the first time, the theme is played in a very sad and bitter way. No wonder that the movie bombed.

The Undiscovered Country was a send off movie, too. But it was energetic, the music was positive (dark, but positive). Not sad, not tired.
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